Categorized | Mark Timmons

Counter Culture

It’s painful to have to write this stuff but it is absolutely true.  The Cardinals have a culture of winning that started long ago and is from the top-down.  It used to be true with the Dodgers.  Not so much anymore.

Dave Duncan set the standard that the Cardinal pitchers have followed for almost two decades.  The pitching staff just has a mindset that they are going to win… and they do.  They lose their ace whether it be Carpenter or Wainright and they win.  They lose their closer (Mott) and they win.  They lose their shortstop (Furcal) and they just plug in a rookie.  They lose Albert Pujols and they plug in Allen Craig and when they lose him they plug in a rookie like Matt Adams.

Except for Adam Wainright and Randy Choate, the rest of the pitching staff is in their early twenties.  “Well, they just get good players” you might say.  They certainly do, but from the time that pitcher gets in the organization until they join the big club is often very short and I think it is the infusion of the right culture into that player.  It’s a mindset – “throw strikes, pitch – don’t just throw, be confident in yourself, because we are.”

They aren’t afraid to make moves either.  Matt Carpenter had never really played 2B until this year – now he’s the regular 2B and one of the TOP 10 MVP Candidates.  Yadier Molina gets better with age because they expect it.  This isn’t by accident.  The front office makes trades and drafts players wisely.  They have a huge number of homegrown players while the Dodgers have a just few.  But, that isn’t enough.  The Cardinals believe in their youngsters and promote them with a passion.

Ned Colletti and Don Mattingly are “old school” – they think rookies have to pay their dues and they show their disdain for them.  Case-in-point: Yasiel Puig hits .515 in spring training and they send him down.  If he were a Cardinal he would have made the roster.  Michael Waugh, Joe Kelley, Shelby Miller and on and on.

John Axford was a journeyman in Milwaukee, but he comes to St. Louis and turns his career around.  It’s the culture.  Their young pitchers are confident and all have live arms.  It’s the culture.

The Cardinals have a culture of winning. The Dodgers don’t.  The Cards have a smart manager who is a nice guy.  The Dodgers have a nice guy as a manager.  Ned Colletti, the Dodgers GM is a “died-in-the-wool” old school guy.  John Mozeliak is a new breed of GM, not just a stat geek but a bright baseball guy who knows the value of keeping young players.  He has surrounded himself with a bunch of younger scouts and advisers and the Cards are always relevant.

The Dodgers are trying to get there, but they are lacking in the intelligence department.  Don Mattingly is not the brightest light in the house.  Cases in point:  (1) using Dee Gordon in the 7th inning in game 1.  That was way too soon and I was yelling at the TV about it; (2) he should have saved Gordon and could have put him in for Mark Ellis when he tripled.  Gordon would have beaten the throw; and (3) Ellis was never tagged at the plate.  Mattingly should have asked for help.  Maybe the ump would not have obliged, but I think he would have if Mattingly Ellis wasn’t tagged.  I’m sure Lopes and the 1B Umpire saw it.  I was screaming that he wasn’t tagged.  I’m surprised they couldn’t hear me.   Some have said that it’s the “vicinity play.”  NO!  I have seen many runners called safe when it was overruled that they did not tag the runner.  I’ve seen it when they have the ball in their hand and tag the runner with their glove.   I think it would have gotten overturned if Metheny was manager – he’s just a smart guy!  The umps know Donnie’s IQ!

In game one, Dodger hitters were at the plate 26 times with runners on base and they could only score 2.  That’s .070!  Yesterday, they were in that position 12 times and scored ZERO.  The Cards were in that position 6 times and  scored one.  Even though the Dodgers are 0-2, they have out-pitched the Cardinals.  The Dodger hitters have just been pathetic.  It’s the culture.  Don Mattingly was a great hitter, but in my opinion he is a mediocre hitting coach and a poor manager.   It’s the culture.

I know that this is a streaky team and they can come back and sweep the Cards, but right about now, that seems unlikely.  I hope they do, but my reality meter says NOPE!   I’m pulling for them, but unless there’s some kind of culture shock, this is over.

When the season is over, the first moves I make if I am Kasten and Johnson is to replace the GM, Manager and coaching staff and the training staff, including Conte.  It’s time for a culture counter to what the Dodgers have.

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About Mark Timmons

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38 Responses to “Counter Culture”

  1. Roger Dodger says:

    Mark, the Dodgers will bring up young pitchers, throw them in some games — then trade them away (Jackson, McDonald and several others).

    I agree with the Cardinals history you mention. They were greater in the 1930s than the Dodgers and always right with them in the 1960s and on.

    Their fans have ALWAYS been astute baseball fans. And not just fan loving beer drinkers out for a good time. They study the game.

    I disagree that the Dodgers out pitched the Cardinals. The object is to win the game. No matter the number of hits or whatever — the winning of the game is what matters. Now if you say, the Dodgers gave up less hits or walks or had more strikeout — that is a stat. But to win the game is the marker.

    Oh — some suggest to move Puig down in the order — fine, then move Punto up to Puig’s spot. If this were the regular season; I put Puig on the bench for awhile or send him down to learn to hit the baseball again. He is taking up space in the batting order right now. He is only 22 and is out of focus.

  2. Badger says:

    So much on which to comment. Can’t do it all now.

    The Dodgers, having once been brilliantly owned and operated by the OMalley family has been completely mismanaged by first Fox and then the miscreant financially dysfunctional McCrotch family. St Louis is actually a small market that lives and breathes Cardinal baseball. They are a vivid example of how to do things right. I greatly admire and respect their model.

    We will be back. We could have blown all theses teams away if we had healthy Kemp, Billingsley, Beckett and Ramirez. It wasn’t meant to be. But make no mistake, it WILL happen.

  3. Pete M. says:

    Seems like a Bataan Death March to me Mark!?!?
    Just a few things to stir the perverbial pot…
    I will hold Honeycutt up to anybody including Mr. Duncan. His record and stats do all the talking.
    I will not bring up the past upper mgmt. I am convinced that the ship is righted..The minor lg. horizon is bright and will continue to improve along with South American involvement.
    So what about Puig..Keep him up… He doesn’t play much… Gets a chance… succeeds awhile…the book gets out…He sucks… he goes down…All that and he’s 22 and doesnt really know the game yet…
    Fire everybody after whatever our last series is??? Really???
    Pitching beat us plain & simple…You may spin it any way you want…
    Thats enough for now…I gotta hit St. Killians and burn a couple votive candles

  4. Pete M. says:

    Thanks Badger for you closing salvo…We will be back…

  5. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    First I’ll respond to what Badger said at the end of the last thread, and then I’ll read what’s up above.

    Badger said, “But we need something of a miracle here. We need to beat their ace and we need to do it with an offense that is severely crippled.”

    Badger, I absolutely agree with that, and with everything else you said in that post. Yet, with the odds looking to be almost insurmountable, I’m not ready to concede. And I don’t think you are either. As Mark would say, we just have to move a mountain.

    OK, I’ll now read what’s above, and decide if there’s anything I want to say about that.

  6. Badger says:

    I never give up hope. But I am not on that field so all I can do is offer opinion. Ryu and the Dodgers need to beat their ace. Our two aces have already lost. Our best hitter left is now down. Ethier ain’t right yet. The odds are very much against us.

    But if we find a way to win the next game we have a shot.

    There are a few more points I would like to address but I have to leave soon. I’ll check back in this afternoon.

  7. Oops says:

    Just last season the Giants were down 0-2 to the Reds in the division series, both losses coming at their own park. They went to Cincinnati and swept three to move on in the playoffs. The Dodgers down 0-2 are coming home and don’t have to win three straight to still be in it. So, don’t give up hope. Perhaps I’m wrong, but it seems to me we still have enough talent left comparable to the team we fielded in 1988. Coming home could make all the difference. Maybe what needs to happen to galvanize the players is an “incident.” Bean a couple of their players and start some trouble. Not necessarily to hurt one of their players but just a little payback for injuring our top guy even though Hanley may not have been intentionally hit – just to shake things up and send a message that though we’re down, we’re not folding like pansies.

  8. Mark_Timmons says:

    Roger,

    The Dodger pitching has given up fewer hits and walks than the Cards. The Cards scored because of a passed ball yesterday and scored two runs on a ball Ethier (if healthy) should have caught.

    The Dodgers have had twice as many baserunners than the Cards. This is a problem that has plagued the Dodgers for several years. You can\’t can\’t ask for better pitching. It\’s the lack of hitting that has killed the Dodgers. It\’s not the Cards pitching as much as the Dodrers lack, because it has often been that way with these guys. You won\’t win much when you average 1 run a game.

  9. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Sure, Dave Duncan was a good pitching coach. Probably a very good pitching coach. But why I ask, would you fire Honeycutt? I think most people in the industry hold him in high regard. From what I’ve seen he’s done a commendable job with the Dodgers pitching staff. Unfortunately, he can’t go up to the plate and hit. And really, I don’t have a problem with the rest of the coaching staff, even though, except for Davey Lopes, I don’t know a whole lot about each of them. But to me, firing the entire coaching staff is tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Now if the Dodgers do fire Mattingly, then maybe a new manager would want to bring in his own people. That’s another matter altogether, and one that can’t be addressed until it happens.

    And yes, the Cards have an excellent farm system, NOW. But really, that hasn’t always been the case. And without scouring the entire Cardinal roster, I do believe that they have their share of imports, e.g., Holliday, Beltran and Wainwright. Even David Freese is an import who they got from the Padres. And although Michael Wacha is out of last years draft, a lot of their talent was drafted or signed when Jeff Luhnow was their head of scouting and player development. He’s gone now, and is the Astros GM. That could actually turn out to be a big loss going forward, since I believe that he’s very highly regarded in the industry.

    And by the way, the Dodgers could have had Michael Wacha. He was taken as the 19th overall pick just behind Corey Seager, who was the 18th overall pick in 2012. In fact, I remember seeing a prognostication in Baseball America before the draft last year that he might be the Dodgers first pick. Since you love Corey Seager’s potential, and the since the Dodgers farm system was devoid of position prospects, who would you have taken?

    And belittle the Dodgers farm system as much as you want, but please lay the blame where it belongs, which is at the door of Frank McCourt. In his final year as owner, the big market Dodgers were DEAD LAST of all 30 MLB teams in the amount of money they spent on international talent. In other words, McCourt abandoned the market that the Dodgers pioneered.

    Yes, the Dodgers culture took a step (actually several leaps) backwards. But that has nothing to do with the current regime, and that includes Ned Colletti. It had everything to do with the guy you supported, Frank (expletive deleted) McCourt. Now the Dodgers are back in the business of signing and developing their own players, but that’s a process that is going to take some years to fully play out. In the meantime, expect the money machine to continue for a while, and expect some more free agent signings, including international free agents. I believe we might also see some of our own pitching prospects step into roles, since we apparently do have some good young arms down on the farm.

    And yes, I’m not happy with what I’m seeing from Mattingly. And maybe he will be replaced. As for Colletti, I’m just not sure. He’s now working under a totally different paradigm than he was under McCourt. I’m not convinced that he’s totally old school. Only time will answer that one.

    You talk about Mozeliak surrounding himself with a bunch of younger scouts and advisers. And just what do you think the Dodgers have done? They hired Gerry Hunsicker, Bob Engle and Pat Corrales with a mind to beefing up the Dodgers’ international operations. And I also believe that the Dodgers have doubled their scouting staff, especially internationally. Those moves will begin to play out, and rest assured, the Dodgers farm system will be the beneficiary. In fact, if you recall, in both the Marmol and Nolasco trades the Dodgers garnered over $400,000 of international slot money to sign players. That’s a significant piece of change given the current restrictions on international spending for young amateur talent.

    And your comment about Puig being sent out after spring training denies what we’ve been seeing of him. Puig was a kid signed out of Cuba the previous June, and, in fact, had been banned from playing in Cuba for about a year due to a failed escape attempt. He also had his winter play reduced by a staph infection in his elbow that required surgery towards the end of the 2012 season. So after spring training the Dodgers didn’t think he was fully ready, and sent him out for further seasoning, since he only played in Rookie and A-ball the previous year (and not even the full year, since he wasn’t signed until June of 2012). In fact, in some brief play in Puerto Rico last winter, Puig only hit .232, if memory serves. The struggles we’re seeing Puig have now making adjustments speak volumes about that decision. Fact is, the Dodgers left spring training with what they thought were three healthy established big league outfielders in Kemp, Ethier and Crawford. Sending Puig out to get more experience at a higher level than he’d played before made perfect sense. And we’re seeing now why further seasoning was necessary, and probably still is. He’s an extraordinary talent, and could suddenly break out at any time. But it’s apparent that he’s also a very raw talent in need of further refinement. If anything, this season with the Dodgers has put him on notice that he still has a lot of work to do.

    Also, I believe the Cardinals sent Wacha down earlier this year to work on his curve, which was considered the weak link in his arsenal. Apparently, that strategy worked, because he refined it in the minors, and brought it back with him to St. Louis. And Joe Kelly, who was signed by the Cardinals in 2009 out of college, didn’t make it up to the Cards until 2012.

    And let’s not try to forget that when he found his control, Chris Withrow made it into the Dodgers bullpen. And had he not been hurt, maybe Jose Dominguez would be there now. And also let’s not forget that it didn’t take long for the Dodgers to call up Kenley Jansen in 2010. Admittedly, the League signing was a mistake, but that was also done with the backdrop of Jansen’s heart problems. Without those problems I don’t think Jansen ever would have lost the closer’s job.

    And by the way, the Cards aren’t all that happy with Pete Kozma at short. He hit all of .217 this year, and to my knowledge the Cards are still looking for a replacement at short. And of course, the geniuses that run the Cardinals signed Furcal to a 2-year $14 million contract, that mercifully (for them) ends after this year.

    And nothing I’ve read or heard (maybe I missed something) tells me that Mattingly or any of his coaches saw that the tag on Ellis was missed. In fact, if they had, I’m sure they would have said something. I find it hard to believe that they wouldn’t have. It’s not like they had the same viewing angles that we saw watching on TV and seeing replays.

    And yes, the Dodgers hitters are pathetic. And I’ve been saying that for quite some time. This team needs to get healthy, and they need to clean out the last vestiges of the McCourt regime, namely Mark Ellis, Chris Capuano, Juan Uribe, and all the contracts they’re currently still paying (Harang-Hernandez, Lilly, Manny, Andruw Jones). And losing some of that after this season will free up more money to spend over the winter. And please, no more second and third tier free agents, unless it’s just to fill a bench role. And even then, let it be someone who can cheaply be let go if something else emerges, be it on the free agent or trade markets, or from the farm system.

    The Dodgers don’t need a culture change. That’s already happened. What they need is a bit more time for the new culture to take hold, as the last vestiges of our long nightmare with FOX and McCourt are finally purged.

  10. Bobbie17 says:

    The Giants pitching staff has a culture of winning that started with Dave Righetti and Tim Lincecum. Winning begets winning, and losing……I am concerned that the pitching staff, including bullpen, has really faded in the last month. I don’t know why. Kershaw and Greinke have been fine, but the rest????? Howell and Wilson have been good, but there isn’t a lot of confidence beyond that. Yet we have 2 low scoring losses that can be blamed on our offense. How about smart hitters, not free swingers?
    The A’s have free swingers and are sitting at home. These are great games, close to the end. But that culture that Mark talks about just isn’t there. This year has proved many things, but in the end, you can’t buy the culture, the quiet confidence the Cardinals have. This is not over yet, but Ryu has to be on. And Puig MUST reestablish his place on the team. Like it or not, it has been his team since June. It still is. If he doesn’t perform, it’s over. He makes them all better. Striking out with a vengeance can only get you so far. It’s time to put the ball in play. Close games make the manager’s decisions more suspect, and they have been in game 1. I agree that Mattingly can only take this team so far, and this is probably it. Not bad, though. Wainwright can be beat, but we better score early and take the game to them.

  11. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    B17, I think you forgot about Kenley Jansen. I know he gave up that hit to Beltran the other day, but those things happen, even when you throw a good pitch. When bat meets ball almost anything can happen. The difference between a line drive and a popup or ground ball is a fraction of an inch on the bat.

    Prior to that hit Jansen was his usual lights out self. Blew away the Braves hitters in the NLDS clincher. Or doesn’t that count? Also, when Beltran got that hit, Jansen was in unfamiliar territory. He’s used to coming into a game to start a clean inning, not with runners on base to clean up someone else’s mess.

    Paco probably ran out of gas after a rookie season in which he appeared in 76 games (nearly half the games). He’s never done anything even remotely similar to that prior to this season. He’s an example of bullpen mismanagement. I don’t know how many appearances he made after the Dodgers established a virtual insurmountable lead, but it was probably too many, and very unnecessary.

    But I will continue to argue, as I did in my post above, that “The Dodgers don’t need a culture change. That’s already happened. What they need is a bit more time for the new culture to take hold, as the last vestiges of our long nightmare with FOX and McCourt are finally purged.”

    You may not think it now, but from my perspective you have a lot to look forward to. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and that’s true for the Dodgers as well. In the meantime I still have hope that we can turn the NLCS around. And if we don’t, I am looking forward to the continued growth of this team. Think of it this way. If every team that gets into the playoffs has a good culture, does that mean that the losing teams suddenly have bad cultures? And since only one of 30 teams wins it all, does that mean the remaining 29 teams all have bad cultures. There’s something wrong about that winner take all mindset.

    The Dodger hitters definitely don’t work the count as well as they should. And that’s interesting, because that’s exactly what Mark McGwire is noted for. Either he’s not getting through to the players, or it’s just something that takes time, and has to be reinforced over and over before it finally takes hold.

  12. Badger says:

    Brooklyn, you have to have good hitters to be able to work counts. Asking guys like the Ellis twins, and Puntomaker to do more than they are capable of in a Championship series is really asking too much. But we are all asking just that.

    Puig is pressing because he knows he and Gonzalez must carry this team. To ask a 22 year old rookie with about 300 at bats to do that in this setting is unrealistic. But we are asking just that.

    Ryu has not looked 100% for a while now. He may have hit a wall that many thought might happen. To ask him to beat the Cardinal ace in a must win situation is unrealistic but we are asking him to do just that.

    Anything can happen. I remain hopeful. But I am also realistic. Without our best hitters the odds are very much against us.

  13. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Badger,

    I was just responding to B17′s post in which he mentioned the A’s free swingers. I agree that you can’t ask players to do what they’re not capable of. This team definitely has some holes. Some of those holes are due to injuries, and then there are the Ellis’ and Punto’s of the world, and the young, inexperienced Puig. And that’s part of the reason I take issue with the anyone questioning the Dodgers’ culture. Culture is nice, but it has to be accompanied by talent. The new owners have changed the culture of the team, but it will take time before that change brings us the missing talent pieces. But like you, I remain hopeful and realistic, and also more than just hopeful for the future of this team. And that last part I think is realistic.

  14. Roger Dodger says:

    MARK — Tell you what. You can look at stats on pitching all day and all night.

    Both Dodger starters of these first two games — pitched fine. BUT — They were out pitched because the bottom line is — did the team win or lose.

    This is not for the Cy Young award now. It is about life and death of the pennant. Only a total shutout would have been what it took. And neither Dodger starter did that.

    I look at the first game: Greinke – 8 innings, 4 hits, 10 Ks, 1 walk — just fine. Then I look 2 runs scored, and both ERs. Then, 4 more innings of relief with 5 more pitchers and 1 run scored — pretty darn good pitching, but game lost.

    Cardinals: Kelly starts — 6 innings 6 hits, 5 Ks . . . runs scored, both ERs. And their pen 7 innings with zero runs given up — they win.

    They did what it took and let in less runs. That is what it took — so they win —

    Game 2 –

    Kershaw – 6 innings, 2 hits, 5 Ks, 1 run. Two relief pitchers followed with zeros. Fine. Nice job all around.

    Cardinals – Wacha 6.2 innings 5 hits; followed by 4 pitchers giving up, ZERO hits.

    As I understand baseball — there is the stats side and the winning and losing side of the game.

    Bottom line — Cardinals won — that is what counts.

    Dodger fans can talk all winter about what great stats the Dodger starters had in those two games — but they lost. Period. Out pitched because they let in more runs than the other team.

    If — now here is the if — if they would have followed my instruction and pitched a total shutout in both games, the Dodgers might have won both games. But, the second game could still be going on because I am not sure the Dodgers can score any more runs now.

  15. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Roger,

    I have to agree with Mark on this one. Greinke and Kershaw both pitched masterpieces, and in both cases they were let down by the defense. And furthermore, Greinke and Kershaw were pitching against the Cardinals, NOT the anemic Dodger offense.

    But you’re right Roger, winning is the object of the game. But it is possible to pitch better than your opponent and still lose. And that’s not to take anything away from Kelly and Wacha. They both pitched great games. But I wonder if they would have been as great if they were pitching against the Cardinals, or a full strength Dodger team.

    But on one point you’re definitely right. Greinke and Kershaw should have followed your instructions and pitched shutouts. In fact, Kershaw should have allowed -1 run, and the Dodgers would have won 0 to -1.

  16. Roger Dodger says:

    For those of us old enough to remember: Sandy pitched a no-hitter one day — and Drysdale was sent ahead because he was to start the next series. And when he found out about the No-Hitter — he responded, “Did he win?”

  17. Roger Dodger says:

    Brooklyn, I have always churned with the phrase, “pitching better than the other guy.” But loosing the game. If the number of strikes or hits or whatever is important — then say — “My guy had more strikes than your guy.” But if you lose the game — big deal. You lost. And in the books, Kershaw is 0-1 for the day.

  18. Roger Dodger says:

    I see Steve Lyons will not be back next year because of the new TV deal with Time-Warner.

  19. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/13/dodgers-dismiss-broadcasters-steve-lyons-eric-collins/

    Eric Collins also not coming back. But Steiner and Monday will be back, as well as the Spanish language broadcasters. And of course, the Dodger treasure, Vin Scully returns as well. Goodness, I still remember him from my childhood in Brooklyn.

  20. jerry says:

    the pass ball bye ellis is the reason we lost that game..that ball was really catchable..ellis was probably tired from the game before..

  21. Bobby says:

    All we have to do is win tomorrow.

    That’s it.

  22. Roger Dodger says:

    Why does David Ortiz get a fat pitch to hit (grand slam) and Agon does not?

    Seems the only Dodgers to get nice pitches down the middle are A.J. Ellis and Puig — and both those guys cannot hit fat pitches down the middle, because they let them go by.

    • Badger says:

      Puig has missed EVERYTHING this series. If this continues, AGon won’t see anything hittable. All the Cards need to do is force the B team to beat them, and that is asking a lot of back-up players.

      It sure would have been fun to see this Dodger team at full strength. Not this year.

      The only thing left to comment on in this thread is the idea that if Puig were on the Cardinals he would have stayed with the big club. I don’t buy that. Puig is a 22 year old without experience. Any team other than maybe Houston would have done what the Dodgers did. We had 3 All Star outfielders on this team already, there was no place for Puig at the beginning of the year. He was brought up because the Dodgers were basically forced to bring him up. Small point maybe, but valid in this thread. Now the league has caught up with him. He has thin skin and delicate psyche. Just ef with him every at bat and he will likely do something stupid. Now, instead of swinging at everything thrown, he is looking at strike three over the plate. Will that change starting today? It could. But I am not betting on it. The smart money has swung the Cardinals way.

      But, that doesn’t mean it’s time to give up. NEVER give up. Who knows, maybe Ellis squared hit two run homers today, Punto makes sevearal dazzling plays at shortstop and Juna Uribe continues his post season explosion. One game at a time. All we need to do is win 4 out of 5.

  23. Badger says:

    One more thing…..

    about that whole “culture” thing….. according to Wikidpedia the Dodgers have won over 1,000 more games than have the Cardinals and have a higher overall winning %.

    Put that in your petri dish and culture it Water Boy.

  24. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Roger,

    I didn’t watch the Red Sox game, but I’m guessing that part of it is that Ortiz probably has a hitter behind him that’s a threat, and can’t easily be pitched around. All Agon has behind him is Puig, who at this stage of his career can more easily be pitched to. And maybe Ortiz just has more power. And maybe because HRs don’t always come when you need them. And sometimes it’s just circumstances. Ortiz might get that same pitch again and pop it up.

    And then there’s what Badger just said above.

    • Badger says:

      I watched the game and Benoit tubed a thigh high fastball with his first pitch. Ortiz wasn’t going to let that cookie go by.

  25. Anonymous says:

    Puig is certainly the key at this point. If he continues to swing and miss it won’t go well for us. But I have not given up either. I was at all three home games in the ’88 world series when we turned the tables on the Yankees…..it could happen again.

  26. SpokaneBob says:

    Sorry, that was me.

  27. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Spokane, sure you meant ’81 world series. But ’88 was also a good year.

  28. StL Fan says:

    Some good conversation and comments. Have enjoyed reading them from real baseball fans. A couple of corrections. The Cardinals have won 10,382 games all-time. The gentleman only tallied the Cardinals wins since the year 1900 but counted the Dodgers wins from 1883 in their totals. The other factor is that the Dodgers have only won 6 WS titles compared to the Cards 11.

    I attended both games this past weekend and right now Puig is not there. Not sure what the broadcasters were saying but one inning he took forever to take his position. In fact they were announcing the Cards batter and he was just clearing the infield while walking to his position.

    • Badger says:

      Thanks for the correction Fan. Not sure why it read what it did when I went there, but I checked and you are right.

      SO… the Dodgers have won more, lost less and had more play-off appearances. Mark made it sound like the Cardinals really had some kind of innate superiority. But clearly that is not the case. For a small market, the Cardinals DO have a good thing going.

      But, there is this…… the Dodgers are in Southern California and the Cardinals are in Missouri. I have lived both places……… so, you know, there is that. Has nothing to do with anything really, I just don’t have anything else to say so, I’ll land a low blow and retreat to my corner.

      Yeah, Puig has, what we oldtimers used to say, his dick in the dirt. He had better pull it together, as in right now, or the Dodgers are even easier team to pitch to than ever.

      Crawford, whoever, Hanley, Kemp, AGon, Puig with Ethier and Young coming off the bench. All healthy running around like thoroughbred colts, kicking ass and taking names. A rotation of Kershaw, Greinke, Bills, Ryu, and Beckett, all healthy throwing 200 innings each. What a dream.

  29. StL Fan says:

    In actuality I think the Cards have won more games (10,382 to 10,347) but who’s really counting….lol. Both franchises have had much success, in fact I would assume the 2 most successful NL franchises and might only trail the NYY.

    As far as health, do keep in mind that the Cards are playing without their best hitter. And have been without Carpenter, a Cy Young winner, Jaime Garcia and our closer from a year ago, Jason Motte so it’s not like the Cards are completely healthy either.

  30. StL Fan says:

    I do agree with most that this series is not over….not until that last out is made is it ever over. But Wainwright has been a big game pitcher and has yet to lose in the post-season so LA has their work cut out for them.

    Like many other good pitchers, if you don’t get them early, good luck because once they start establishing their pitches, it’s over.

    As far as home grown talent, yes Wainwright was drafted by the Braves and Freese by the Padres but both never played for those big league teams. Both were identified by Cardinals scouts as potential major leaguers and did play in the Cards minor leagues prior to reaching the big leagues.

    I believe the only players that were fa signees or traded for were Beltran, Holliday, Axelford, Choate and Westbrook.

  31. Michael says:

    I’m really surprised to hear of this attitude by taking his time to man his position by Puig. I’m quite sure he has been counseled on this previously by getting yanked out of a game earlier this season. Guess the inmates took over the asylum. Very disappointing.

  32. Idaho al says:

    This is why I like this blog. Everyone expresses their opinions and nobody gets too upset with each other. The farm system has been depleted by McCourt and Colletti. I believe in time our farm system will produce the home grown players that the Dodgers used to have under O’Malley. The ownership made a decision to do two thing right now. The first is to bring a winner to LA now. To do this they had to go out and trade to bring in the ball players. The second part is to build the farm system. This will take time. I believe in 4-5 years, most of our team will be home grown players. I am not sure what to think about Cottetti. I did not like many of his decisions, but working for McCourt had to be been hard.

    Grienke and Kershaw pitched very well. You cannot ask anymore from those two. Baseball is still a team sport. We just did not score any runs.

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