Categorized | Mark Timmons

It’s Time To Move Gordon

Hanley Ramirez is the Dodgers’ shortstop.  Period.

Dee Gordon has demonstrated that he is not an elite-caliber defensive shortstop.

Wait, that’s not true.  He has actually shown that he has no future as a shortstop.

If Dee Gordon ever makes it as a major league player, it will be as a CF and a speedy leadoff hitter who can put up a .340+ OB%.

It’s time to move Dee Gordon to one of two places:

  1. To Albuquerque to learn to play CF; or
  2. To another team to learn to play CF.

Either way, Dee Gordon is not in the Dodgers 2013 plans… maybe 2014!

Michael Bourn wants too much money and Andre Ethier might really have a career year this season under Big Mac.  I think that the Dodgers should be done… for now, unless they can pick up a leadoff hitter who happens to play 3B.

FiscalCliff

 

About Mark Timmons

When you see the invisible, you can do the impossible!

35 Responses to “It’s Time To Move Gordon”

  1. Badger says:

    “Hanley Ramirez is the Dodgers’ shortstop. Period.”

    Sorry to hear that. Four straight years of negative dWAR tells me somebody else might should be playing over there. Dee Gordon too has similar stats, but, with his range he will get to many more balls than a 230 pound Hanley Ramirez and thereby have many more assists. Dee is only 24 and in many ways still learning his position. He only has one year of ML experience (527 at bats) and will make some organization a fine shortstop.

    As for moving him to Center, I would have no problem with that, but, if the organization agreed with you, he would have been there this winter.

    Do you really believe Ethier will be changed by McGwire? I do not. I say he will have the same stats he always does. His OPS+ for the last five years has been 132, 132, 133, 121 and 123. It will be somewhere right there again this year. And he will still have trouble hitting lh pitching. It’s kinda who he is, with a career .238 avg. .649 OPS.

    “Michael Bourn wants too much money”

    First of all, for the Dodgers too much money does not exist. And may I remind you, Michael Bourn is coming of a 6.2 WAR, half of which was earned in the field. It is generally accepted that each WAR point is worth somewhere around 5 mil. Granted, last year was his best year ever in a contract year, but I think you can assume he will have positive WAR’s both o and d. What is he worth? To the Dodgers as their lead-off guy? ion’tkno, but in my book he is worth between 12-15 per. It is going to be very interesting to see where he eventually lands. Sure hope it isn’t San Francisco.

  2. Beckett_rockett says:

    when I saw the trade proposal of the mariners regarding Upton, I thought the Dodgers could make this deal;

    Taijuan Walker, Nick Franklin, Charlie Furbush, and Franklin Gutierrez for
    Andre Ethier, Dee Gordon, Aaron Harang

    this deal benefits both team.
    And after that, Dodgers can sign Delmon Young (Not M.Bourn) at 1yr deal. because 1rnd pick can be kept. and with all this job, Puig can make the team in 2014.

    • Badger says:

      I like it.

      Except for the not signing Bourn part. Delmon Young? Man, he sorta stinks the joint up doesn’t he? We need a lead-off hitter and Young ain’t him.

      I say again, with the prospects you just got us trading Ethier, we can skip a first round this year.

      I am issuing you all a Bourn ultimatum.

  3. Kevin says:

    There is no reason to trade Gordon just to trade him Mark. His trade value has never been lower and he’s still young enough to turn a corner. As much as you don’t like him he is still good insurance to have in case Hanley gets hurt. If he goes down who plays SS? At this point I doubt he brings back much in return. If he does figure it out I’d rather it be for us than for some other team. Just my two cents.

  4. Roger Dodger says:

    What would concern me, if I were the GM or owner, thinking about Michael Bourn –

    is — his splits from last season:

    1st half average: .311

    2nd half average: .225

  5. Beckett_rockett says:

    My reluctance to get Bourn comes from;

    1. he strikes out too much, lacks in power.

    2. he is left-handed player, and the similar approach of Carl Crawford’s.

    3. he is at his peak considering age, and too expensive. (Scott Boras’s client)

    4. 1 Rnd draft pick is important in new CBA Rule era.

    All in all, I think Bourn is down-grade version of Crawford(AVG, OPS, Impact).

    But if his price and length of contract are reasonable (like 10 mil/yr, 1~2 yrs?), he can be welcome addition.

  6. Badger says:

    His stats don’t bother me at all:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=bournmi01&year=Career&t=b

    Three year split K% is 22%. True, that is not great, but it’s not horrible. The average is 18.5%.

    Fist half second half career splits are nearly identical Roger. Wonder what happened last year. Leading off a game he is terrific, his clutch numbers are good, he steals a lot of bases early putting pressure on defenses, no outs he has a .357 OBP, leading off an inning it’s .359 so he gets things started, and he is the only lead-off guy available right now. As far as I am concerned they are all overpaid, and that doesn’t appear to be a problem for the current Dodger ownership. If they like him, they will get him. Like I said, he takes Ethier’s place and we get three top prospects for Andre, so that first round pick loss is easier to absorb. Guess that doesn’t mean much to anyone else.

    Hey, I don’t know he is the best fit, maybe not. I would just hate to have the guy land in the NL West and we have to face his +WAR all year. It would be just like the gints to land this guy.

  7. Pete M. says:

    Kevin – I’m all in with your comment. I’m pleased that he has no trade value. I have watched this kid thru the years and I’m of the opinion that he is a really good athlete. His demeanor and mental makeup has been or seems to be good. Start him at SS in Albuauerque and let him play every day. Get Flash imvolved to urge him, because this may be his last house on the block. I continue to beleive he will one day soon be our starring SS and lead off guy. Now, I like Hanley, but if the time comes for him to move to 3B and he balks, trade his ass.

  8. Roger Dodger says:

    Pete, I agree with you.

    The team/staff is committee to Hanley for now. Big bucks, big star in the past, might just put it together.

    As this season rolls on, and even into next, and his SS playing is suspect, limited, with more and more questions out there — then a move to 3rd base — if he balks and causes an attitude problem —– dump him to another team.

    But maybe, he and his agent, and his close friends can convince him to play for the team and that total glory — then he has matured.

    Mark feels the Dodgers are now just waiting for Spring Training, and then make adjustments in trades or signings then.

    Maybe a minor league guy will jump out and make the team re-think the roster.

    • Badger says:

      I agree with both of you guys. Dee breezed through our minor league system and was All Everything everywhere he played. Something happened at the big league level, one of them being a freak injury, and it seems the organization has lost faith in him. I think starting him every day at AAA, leading off and playing SS, is the best thing we can do at this point.

      He does have trade value, but the team is at least partially responsible for his value dropping. Everyone knows we aren’t going to use him so that value has diminished. If we would have offered him after his first year up, teams would have jumped at him. A minor league All Star SS that hit .300 his first year and can steal 60 bases? How many of those are out there?

      None, that’s how many.

      Oh well. Kid will get his chance. If not with us, then with some team that has more patience.

  9. Bobby says:

    I wouldn’t say Gordon “has to go”. It’s not like he’s a cancer or has demanded a a trade (even if he has, who cares).

    Clearly he needs to work on walks, getting on base, and improved D at SS. If it’s determined NOW that he’s a CF, then go to AAA and play CF.

    Right ow we won’t get as much in trade value for him as he’s really worth. So only trade him if it’s in package to bring back an impact starter…

    I still love his ability, and I want him to get another chance at SS, and move Hanley back to 3b, as he really didn’t impress me whatsoever at SS last year.

    That being said, 29 days to go until pitchers and catchers report????? And 5 days to go until the Kings unveil their Stanley Cup Champion banner at Staples!!

  10. Mark_Timmons says:

    When I said he had to go, one of the options was to GO learn how to play CF.

    For the record, I like Dee. I like him a lot.

    I just don\’t think he\’s a shortstop!!!

    • Badger says:

      Well, so far, the organization disagrees with you Mark.

      I think his real value is as an infielder that can suck up balls nobody else can get to. There are a lot of outfielders out there. True, not many of them could get to the balls Dee could, and who knows, maybe his arm is more suited for the longer throws, but, I can’t help but believe if the organization valued him as a CFer, that is where he would have played this winter. The stats say he played in 29 games, and as far as I know, none of them was in CF. 29 games, and the practices in between, is enough time to get your feet wet at a different position. Add the time between when that league ended and when the new season starts, the move to the outfield should be a piece of cake for an athletic shortstop. It didn’t happen, and I have not heard a thing suggesting it will happen. Dee Gordon’s current, and immediate future value, is as a SS.

  11. Bill Russell says:

    Is it less then 30 days to spring yet? We are struggling in here for something of substance to talk about. Peace

  12. Bobbie17 says:

    Keep Gordon as a middle infielder and have him play in the minors as long as he has to or until he gets to move on his own. He still might be good, and we will have need sometime soon. He should get better at whatever they ask him to do.

  13. ken says:

    The dodgers do not believe that Gordon is a good enough athlete to play CF? All the more reason to have voted Biggio in on the first ballot.

    Rameriz is under contrct for 2 more years. Gordon can learn to play SS at ALBA for 2 more years. Let it be!

    If Crawford is a bust, then who should play the OF? Would Either, Gordon, Kemp be better than Hariston, Kemp, Either?

    I am ok with the current team. In some parts of the world there should be a spending limit that says we spent enough and whatever happens happens.

  14. quasimodo says:

    yes my opinion has some wishful thinking but i very much believe big mack will not only help ethier, but the rest of the lineup as well. so sick of reading all the chat about trading ethier even befor his $85 million contract comes into effect. no need to whip a dead horse as front office didn’t spend $85 million for a bargaining chip. i don’t play fantasy baseball and am not up on stats nearly as much as the average poster here, but i didn’t miss a single dodger game last year so thusly i’m just kinda used to cheering for the players that wear dodger uniforms.

    • Badger says:

      I like Ethier quas. For some time I was defending him but the reality, as I see it, is if we don’t find a lead-off hitter somewhere else, then Bourn, who would make about as much as Ethier, is a good option. Trading Ethier and his 3. WAR for three top prospects, and replacing him with a 100 run lead-off center fielder who WAR’d 6.2 last year makes sense in my world. If it doesn’t happen, then our team is still good, just has a hole at the top of the order.

  15. OJ says:

    how about moving Dee to 2nd for the 2013 season in AAA?

  16. Mark_Timmons says:

    I watched Dee Gordon from the time he was in Low-A ball… in person and on TV. He has matured physically and with the bat, to some degree. I still see the same defensive weakness as a SS. He has not improved at all defensively, and I am not just talking stats. I am saying what my eyes see. I see a player that is not a SS – my opinion.

  17. Idahoal says:

    I agree with Badger’s first post. Dee is a better shortstop than Ramirez. Dee will get to a lot more ground balls that Ramirez any day of the year. Because he will get to so many ground balls, he is going to make a few more errors. I think the injury hurt him and he may have lost some confidence. I just do not like Ramirez’s attitude. Why do we have to work around him just to satisfy him. I have coached High School sports and I will tell you that a kid with a bad attitude will never deliver for you in a tight game. Dee in center field reminds me of another Dodger who played left field. That signing did not work out either. Keep Either in right field. You know what you are going to get with him. He is a good player.

  18. Badger says:

    Well al, if Ethier remains in RF, it likely means Carl Crawford is leading off, and I am on record with not liking that idea. He is the ideal 2 hole hitter, and to ask him to do something other than that is asking for some trouble. My opinion.

    btw, is it cold up there? Been really cold down here in Northern Arizona. I got a buddy who is skiing in Boise this week, haven’t heard from him. Hope he is all right. He is 70.

    You know who might help Ethier with his hitting LHer problem? Adrian Gonzalez. He hits them well (.280) If Ethier could raise his avg. against to LHers (.238) to around .265, what a difference it would make in his final stats and WAR number. His early inning stats are much better than his late innings and his late and close average is .239. I suspect that is because teams are using their left handed relievers against him then. He needs to work on that, but I think after this long in the bigs, he knows it and HAS worked on it. It just hasn’t worked.

    I sure hope Hanley isn’t a head case this year. If he could focus, work hard on what he needs to (K/BB ratio, fielding) and keeps his mouth shut, he could be a very good middle order hitter and teammate. I just wonder about him.

    I do understand that Bourn likely won’t repeat his 6.2 WAR. There are teams out there waiting for his price to go down, and I think it eventually will. If we don’t get him, I sure hope he lands in the AL.

  19. Roger Dodger says:

    Like what Idahoal and Badger just posted.

    I have said it before, and will re-state now — The Dodgers seem committed to grant Hanley’s request to be the Dodger SS. OK. But if he doggs it, cannot make the big plays, does a few too many o-lays with his arm. Does not make the relay to home, etc.

    MOVE him to 3B, and if his attitude sours — first, bench him, then trade him for a bag of balls.

    Gee, he has so much potential and could help lead the Dodgers deep into the post season –

    I like Dee in the infield. SS or even 2B. Because I want his speed. It is a game changer.

    Move to center field??? I understand that he might be a good one, but to play CF in the majors on a championship team is not easy. There is so much to learn. And a few months in AAA and extra practice is not enough. It takes awhile.

    Have to learn the ball parks, and it just got more difficult with adding American League parks now with the new schedule system. A different throw, different . . . face it, it took Kemp several years and he still bangs into walls.

    At some point, if I were Dee’s agent, I would want him to be a major league player, and if the Dodgers do not start, starting him — I want him to move on to another organization and play there.

  20. Bobby says:

    Rafael Soriano anyone?? Personally, don’t think we need him. I know we all have minor leaguers/young players that we’re all in love with. Right now mine is Shawn Tolleson (since RDLR is gone), and I think he’s gona be big time this year for us.

    https://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/290963514540060673

    • Badger says:

      Well…. I guess you can never have too many good arms. Until you have so many there is no room…… then you trade some of them for a lead-off guy. But then, where does the lead-off guy play? Second base? No room in the outfield unless Ethier is moved. Not many third baseman lead-off.

      I agree about Tolleson. He has shown me he is ready to be used. If not here, then in a trade (with Gordon?) for a lead-off second baseman with 50 steal potential and get on base % of .350. Who is that? Somebody find him for me then make it happen.

  21. RoidRage says:

    Dee isn’t going anywhere but Albecracky, it seems to be a forgotten notion that SS is a pretty demanding and dangerous position to play in the majors. Everything from numerous long throws and being taken out at second by a sliding baserunner are the norm for a SS. With that said, why would the Dodgers chuck the truest backup SS that they have in the organization? They wouldn’t and they won’t. Another team would have to knock their socks off with a trade for the Dodgers to part company with Dee.

    Also, Hanley does not appear to be a guy who works out and conditions himself during the winter, thus the prospect of injury is of high concern for the Dodgers. They know and we know it, Hanley is a lazy, naturally talented ballplayer that has NEVER had to work hard at the game and he isn’t about to learn a new trick now.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but Hanley starts, Hanley gets hurt and Dee sweeps in to pick up the pieces this year. Maybe even to the point of Dee never giving the position back to Hanley.

  22. Pete M. says:

    Do you get the feeling that if Robinson Cano is a FA next year, the Blue goes all in, becuz we have zilch point manure @ 2B in the pipeline.
    I’ve bee coveting this guy since he first started. I dont think Mr. S. will let him go without a fight, but as Dick Enberg would say “My O My” what a p/u for anyone.
    Ditto on Soriano…I really like Tolleson and hope for an encore this coming season…
    Dee G.- Roid you’re right on about Dee and the possiblities. It would truly tickle the shit out of me.
    Starting with Reggie Smith and over the years, I’ve heard this negative and that negative on players and especially with Reggie it was all concocted b.s….I saw a guy who wanted to play last year and did. Wanted to be happy and was…Lets all give some time to evaluate. Same with Crawford.
    Be Happy…..

  23. ken says:

    Old Chris Jackson is writing some very good articles about the terrible dodger pipeline. See MSTI. So far every position sucks!

  24. SpokaneBob says:

    I think Mark is just stir crazy waiting for ST. RR has it right. First if we were to trade Gordon it would be late in ST when we can get the highest value. But I believe that we keep Dee and in fact he becomes a key part in 2013.

  25. Anonymous says:

    Happy New Year Mark!!! Really enjoy reading your site and all the best!!! It’s was a lot fun watching Dee Gordon. Hope the new owners give the farm system a chance especially those players that were overlooked !!!! But it seems position players doesn’t have any chance to move up.

  26. Badger says:

    We already know Hanley starts at short. The discussion is about what is going to be done with Gordon. Apparently he isn’t going to play outfield and since he must start to get the playing time, and there is no room for him on this team, then yeah, of course he goes to Albuquerque. But honestly, would it surprise any of you if he were traded? Not me. I don’t want to happen either, as I have been one of his backers from the very beginning, but, knowing this organization is about the now, nothing they do in an effort to win this year would surprise me.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. [...] It’s Time To Move Gordon Hanley Ramirez is the Dodgers’ shortstop.  Period. Dee Gordon has demonstrated that he is not an elite-caliber defensive shortstop. Wait, that’s not true.  He has actually shown that he has no future as a shortstop. If Dee Gordon ever makes it as a major league player, it will be as a CF and a speedy [...]… [...]

  2. [...] multiple media reports. View full post on Yahoo! Sports – MLB – Los An more… It’s Time To Move Gordon – ladodgertalk.com 01/13/2013 Hanley Ramirez is the Dodgers’ shortstop.  Period. Dee [...]

  3. [...] The rest of the article can be found here: LADodgerTalk.com – Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw, Vin Scully, Andre Ethier and the Dodgers [...]


Leave a Reply

Mandatory Daily Dodger Reading