Categorized | Mark Timmons

Second Base Is Covered

Second Base Is Covered

Dear Ned,

Are you listening?  Listen, you have a choice to make.  Are you going to offer arbitration to Ryan Theriot?  I know that he’s a “gritty player” and a good defender at 2B, but he’s probably going to cost $3.4 to $4.5 mil.  Forget about it! Let him go.  We got Lilly.  You don’t have to justify Theriot.  See, here’s the deal.  Ivan DeJesus, Jr. (IDJ2) is ready. Why didn’t you give him a callup in September?  Don’t answer that, because if you are truthful, you will have to admit to being a dumbass.   So, never mind.  Look, IDJ2 is ready (did I mention that?).

After breaking his leg (an event to which I was a 20 ft away witness) in 2009, he came back and hit .296 at AAA in 2010,  and then proceeded to hit .321 in the AFL with a .411 OB% while OPSing .847 (Andrew Lambo OPSed .787 in the same league and Sands OPSed .904 – You still excited about Lambo?).

IDJ2 is ready.  Forget about competition at 2B next year.  Give him the job. You won’t regret it!

Spend on something else.  Preferably someone who an hit HR.

About Mark Timmons

When you see the invisible, you can do the impossible!

39 Responses to “Second Base Is Covered”

  1. Badger says:

    Makes sense to me. Somewhere in this lineup you really should have one of our young guys. Get one in there every year like we usta did.

    “You still excited about Lambo?”

    Not really. He is with another team now. I am still upset with jed that he couldn’t get more for him. And btw, wasn’t it you that was so excited about him last year?

    I read we should have some news about the divorce before Thanksgiving. Hope so. It’s a dark cloud hanging over this team. Mark lives in Indianapolis, so he is used to seeing dark clouds over his head, but, I am used to blue skies. Don’t like dark clouds. They frighten me.

  2. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Bobby had a problem posting a link to an article from ESPN-LA two threads back. The article concerned 7 Dodger prospects who played in the AFL. Here it is:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/columns/story?id=5818874

    Bobby also made the point, as Mark does above, that playing IDJ2 at 2B for the MLB minimum will save money that can be used to address other needs. I’ve thought the same thing for a long time myself. De Jesus has a chance to be reasonably good at 2B. He did OK at ALBQ this past year, and seems to have re-discovered his plate discipline in the AFL. Hide him in the 8th spot in the order, where he either clears the pitcher frequently or gets on base and gets sacrificed into scoring position. Good 8th place hitters are hard to find, and more valuable than we give them credit for. Besides, what do we have a farm system for? When the opportunity presents itself, use it.

    I won’t go as far as to say that De Jesus will succeed, but neither am I certain that the Japanese guy would either. Sometimes you just have to take a chance.

    And Mark, the point I and others have made about Lambo is not how good he is going to turn out to be, but how much more valuable as a trade chip he should have been. Trading him away is not the issue. Trading him away for Octavio Dotel is. And adding McDonald to that dumb deal made it all the dumber.

    And Mark, I was even closer, standing at the chain link fence behind the plate, a little towards the third base side. We probably saw each other, but that was before I started posting on this blog, and before I ever got to see your handsome mug (smile). It was a nasty collision. I can still hear De Jesus hitting that shin guard, and watching him writhe in pain.

    • how valuable are lambo and McD when all we could get for them was Dotel? They had to be packaged to get Dotel. Ever think of it that way. Lambo’s baggage brings down his value no matter how good you think he is.
      Do you guys remember Elijah Dukes? The guy had enormous talent, bit got into so much trouble, he is out of baseball now at the young age of 26. I am not comparing Lambo to him becuase Dukes had alot more problems than Lambo. Guys with baggage get waived…..or traded. See Lastings Milledge.

      • Badger says:

        “how valuable are lambo and McD when all we could get for them was Dotel”

        I see your point. But, how valuable was Dotel when all that could be had for him was a 26 year old AA player?

        Is Lambo really that much of a butterhead? And McDonald seemed to pitch just fine after he finally got out of here.

        I guess we won’t know how bad this trade is until both Lambo and McDonald fail miserably. And, won’t some of us be happy to see that.

  3. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    I just posted a moment ago, but it seems to have disappeared into the ether. Maybe it’ll materialize later. The part about Bobby’s post below was part of it, and was fortunately saved to my clipboard. I’m not going to try and reproduce the entire post, except to say that I agree that IDJ2 should get the shot at 2B, and that the money saved could be better used to address other needs. And I also was behind the plate when IDJ2 ran into that shin guard in a March 2009 B-game. But that was before I began posing on this blog, and didn’t have a clue as to who Mark was or what he looked like. We probably passed each other like a couple of strangers, which we were.

    And yes, I did address the Lambo issue. I didn’t like the deal, because I thought that he could have garnered us (by himself or in a package) a lot more than Octavio Dotel. And as I pointed out in my previous post, including McDonald also made a dumb deal that much dumber.

    Bobby had a problem posting a link to an article from ESPN-LA two threads back. The article concerned 7 Dodger prospects who played in the AFL. Here it is:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/columns/story?id=5818874

  4. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    I’m testing. Just posted twice, and neither appears here. Closed my browser and re-opened it. Hoping that will do the trick.

  5. Badger says:

    That has happened to me and ldog on a few occasions Brooklyn.

  6. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    OK, that problem solved. I can’t reproduce my previous posts exactly, but here’s basically what I said.

    Bobby had a problem posting a link to an article from ESPN-LA two threads back. The article concerned 7 Dodger prospects who played in the AFL. Here it is:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/columns/story?id=5818874

    The above about Bobby was still on my clipboard.

    I agree that IDJ2 should get the shot at 2B. He appears to have come back well from his injury, and also appears to have re-discovered his plate discipline in the AFL. The money saved by paying him the MLB minimum can be better used to address other needs. De Jesus has a reasonable chance of succeeding, and giving him the opportunity is justification for having a farm system. It needs to be used.

    And I was also behind home plate when IDJ2 ran into that shin guard in the March 2009 B-game. I can still hear the thud, and remember seeing him writhing in pain right in front of me as I stood behind the chain link fence. Mark and I probably saw each other, but that was before I began posting here, and therefore before I had ever seen his handsome mug (smile).

    Regarding Lambo, my objections, and those of others, had nothing to do with how good Lambo is or will be. That’s still debatable. The problem was that such a good prospect was unloaded for Octavio Dotel, when he could have been used (perhaps in a package) to haul in bigger fish. And including McDonald in that dumb deal made it all the dumber.

    I’m guessing it’s possible that my previously failed posts will suddenly materialize out of the ether. If so, I apoologize for crowding this thread.

  7. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Somethings wrong. My posts, at least he longer ones, aren’t appearing. Three so far.

  8. Bill Russell says:

    It happened to me a few times yesterday Brooklyn. I was blaming the laptop. I am also having trouble opening the lead story as it appears to get mixed into the story below and you can’t find a place to click to open it up. I guessed that the writer was Mark and got in that way. Time for some cyber tech around here. PS I agree with Mark to give the 2nd base job to Ivan.

  9. Mark Timmons says:

    FYI:

    Like most blogs, we get hundreds of spam comments, but the spam filters are supposed to get them and let the real ones go through. I just found 10 comments by Badger, Brooklyn and Bobby in spam (some were several days old). I have no clue why. I’ll check every day for a while and hopefully our IT department can figure it out.

    If ever a post disappears, e-mail me at mark@ladodgertalk.com and I’ll get it out of “spam jail.”

    Sorry for the inconvenience.

    Regards,

    The Spam Parole Board

  10. Roger Dodger says:

    On the thread yesterday:

    Bobby says: “i dont see the fascination with some japanese guy nobody has ever seen before and who’s only had 1 good year. i’m guessing the japanese leagues are like AAA+? meaning higher than our AAA leagues but not quite mlb?”

    Bobby, that is probably true. But my concern is that the Dodgers do not have anyone as good as Tsuyoshi Nishioka could be, from Japan, in our AAA.

    And not sure there are any others out there for the cheap taking to play at 2b base. Uggla is off the table.

    I still say, sign this guy, and money will come in from additional ticket sales. And he will take pressure off of other Dodgers (which is good).

    Hey, maybe the Dodgers can work a deal for that left fielder that is needed and get Milton Bradley back.

    Back to Mark’s take — if the Dodgers play IDJ2 at second, fine with me. But then get a real third baseman, a real left fielder, and a real catcher. My working theory is, do not have 4 weak spots plus the pitcher slot in the line-up.

    What that translated to is: WEAK spots — Casey Blake at 3b, IDJ2 at 2b, Gibbons/Xman in LF, Martin & a backup C. That is not a winning team. That is just placing players out there to fill out the line-up card. That really puts pressure on the final 4: Ethier, Kemp, Loney, & Furcal. And that will not get’ her done. You betcha’

  11. Mark Timmons says:

    Badger,

    I used to be a big Lambo fan, but gradually came to the conclusion that he’s a “knucklehead.” Just my opinion, but it’s formed by what people in the organization say (and don’t say) about him.

    I guarantee that before anyone is traded, the whole Dodger braintrust is consulted, which is why I doubt they will bring LaRoche or Young back. I think their opinion of them was poor and why should they re-consider?

    These guys are with them every day and know stuff you and I never will. I guarantee that if a guy is a good guy and a hard worker, they will hang on to him as long as they can.

    Frequently when a guy is traded (not always), it one of the following flaws:

    1. Work ethic
    2. Character
    3. Attitude
    4. Habits

    Other than that, I have no insight. Maybe Andy had flaws I didn’t know about.

    I know that Logan liked Santana as a hitter.

  12. Badger says:

    Yeah, Andy is a puzzler. He had it in the minors, was considered an A prospect (rare for us) and just fell off the map.

    We have had a pretty good run with our younger talent, but lately, for reasons that have been debated in here, we don’t seem to be showing much. We have used a lot of them in questionable trades, but, until they actually show up on the ML stat sheets no loss can be measured. Lambo/McD for Dotel is still a bad move though. Most of us are in agreement about that. But, even if we still had them and wanted to use them in trade…. could we afford the player for which they are traded? Doubtful.

    I think the Dodgers would, under different circumstances, be players for Nishioka. But, it’s a question of money. Just to post for the kid is going to be $10-20 million. He IS the league batting champion, and the market for his position and his skills is thin this year, so, there will be a lot of interest. Until further notice, I believe we may have spent our collective wad on two veteran pitchers. Dodger Divorce says we might get a ruling before Thanksgiving, so, that is this week. No matter what it is, there will be appeals that could drag on more months. But, the way I see it, if Frankie McNoNickels wins, he might have some support from somewhere to make a move.

    We may not see much done until early next year. No rush. We aren’t players for Noshiaka, Crawford, Lee, or Dunn, so, patience is required.

  13. T says:

    I wouldn’t mind giving the 2B job to IDJ mainly because we have bigger holes to fill (LF) and Theriot isn’t a big upgrade.

    With that said, I’m not a huge IDJ fan. He gets on base (or did before last year) and looks to be a solid hitter but this comes with little speed and little power combined with iffy D from all the reports I’ve read. No power, speed and no D? Is that a good thing?

  14. Badger says:

    Yeah, he makes up for his lack of speed with an iron glove and no power. (fldg. % .974 RTZ in big minus numbers)

    He got on base at .369 in the minors. Get close to that and we will be fortunate. On this team, it’s all about getting on base.

  15. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=dejesu001iva

    Looks to me that his 2B defensive stats were fine in 2008 when he moved to 2B from SS. As his leg continues to improve over time, I suspect that his range will also improve. Also, it appears as if he’s better suited to 2B than to SS.

    Also De Jesus gets a bad rap regarding his power. He had 33 doubles, 2 triples, 7 HR and 70 RBI, .405 SLG and .740 OPS at ALBQ. in 2010. And although he had a .335 OBP this past year, it was .419 in 2008 BEFORE his injury, and a .411 OBP in the just concluded AFL season, where it seems he’s begun to regain his former plate discipline. He also had a .436 SLG and .847 OPS in the Fall League.

    And by the way. From everything I read about the Japanese guy, power is NOT one of his better attributes.

    As for his speed, that’s also probably going to improve over time as he puts behind what was a very serious break of his tibia. In fact, he stole 6 out of 7 at ALBQ. And baserunning is more than just speed. And even though I haven’t seen him for any extended period of time, I get the impression that he’s a basically fundamentally sound player, and a good baserunner. If anything, I doubt if he’s a base clogger. And having Davey Lopes on the coaching staff can only help.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l119&lid=119&t=l_bat

  16. Jaydavis says:

    Can the Dodgers make a move on Upton? Broxton for Upton maybe.

  17. Bobby says:

    i think brooklyn and i were trying to post another link from espnla that was strictly on IDJ2.

    he does seem like a guy that’s recovered well from the injury, and showed that in the AFL.

    in a perfect world, i’d love to spend money on the japanese 2b, but we all know that we, much like our nation, need to budget properly. if all we have is 15 mil to spend, i’d rather that go to beltre, or crawford, or even werth, over a posting fee plus contract for a 2b with no power.

    but i can see ned bringing in some cheap vet like renteria to split with idj a bit until he fully takes the job over in june

  18. Badger says:

    That first site you posted Brooklyn is where I got the numbers for my post. I have no idea how good, or bad, he is at 2b. I haven’t seen him play in a while. He hit .296 at Albu, but that wasn’t even in the top 25 of the league and his OPS wasn’t in the top 60. I would think that his leg is more than healed by now. Sometimes as you know, players come back stronger than before. If he is the 2b, he will hit at the bottom of the order and I wouldn’t expect a lot out of him. That’s just me. Andy LaRoche was way better than him in the minors and look what happened to him.

    Jay, I really doubt the Dbacks will move Upton. They just threw the line in the water to see if they get any bites. If they do decide to take an offer, I doubt it will be to a division rival. They will send him east probably to an A.L. club. Frankly I would be surprised to see him moved. He is a 5 tool talent that is ready for a break-out year. You don’t get players like him very often.

  19. chucky says:

    For discussion purposes;

    I want to know why everyone is so quick to NOT give the starting job to Jamie Carrol? He hits, fields, is a gutty little player, a good example to the kids, what else does he have to do. Just because he also plays SS does that mean you don’t just give him the job and bring up a Hu or sign a Uribe to play backup?

    I love Carroll, I know the “kids” could learn lots from him.

    Peace

  20. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Chucky,

    Jamey Carroll will be 37 next season. He’s at a stage in his career where he’s best suited to fill-in on occasion, and come off the bench. If he plays everyday he’s likely to wear down. But most of all, he’s simply more valuable in his current role. Also, I believe he has a very high lifetime pinch hitting average.

  21. Badger says:

    I agree. Carroll is the utility guy. Every team needs a good one and he is a good one.

  22. dtwdodger says:

    Spending large on Nishioka is a huge gamble that the team can’t afford to make and shouldn’t consider due to the risk of mediocracy at the major league level. Yes, he could do well, but is that a big money risk the Dodgers could afford to make at this time. I don’t think so. The risk/reward measure is unfavorable at this time. With what IDJ2 has shown it makes sense to allow him the opportunity to earn the job. There is probably just as much chance of a failure there as signing Nishioka but the cost of failure is far less and we still have other in house options if IDJ2 doesn’t cut it.

    As you stated, Mark:

    “I used to be a big Lambo fan, but gradually came to the conclusion that he’s a knucklehead.” Just my opinion, but it’s formed by what people in the organization say (and don’t say) about him.”

    My faux son-in-law spent time with and instructing Lambo, and my opinion would echo your sentiments Mark.

    However, Brooklyn’s point about the trade is the crux of the issue and why as fans we remain disappointed in our GM’s chain of performance:

    “And Mark, the point I and others have made about Lambo is not how good he is going to turn out to be, but how much more valuable as a trade chip he should have been. Trading him away is not the issue. Trading him away for Octavio Dotel is. And adding McDonald to that dumb deal made it all the dumber.”

    We understand that not all trades and signings can or do turn out well (for any team for that matter) but Dodger trades and signings are littered with the debris of one bad deal after another. We are so accustomed to bad trades/signings that when we are able to get an Ely/Link in a trade for Pierre and paying salary we actually think we got a good deal; until we remember how we got in the position of having Pierre to begin with.

    Mind you, I’m not saying all Dodger deals/signings are bad. 2 months of Manny in ’08 was fabulous and I wasn’t too excited by the 2 year Carroll signing but he turned out to be a very fine addition to the overall team. It’s our “big” moves that seem t so often be stinkers.

    Furthermore, it is disappointing that year after year we remain in the bottom half of amateur signing dollar expenditures (Zach Lee excepting) and mostly in the bottom quarter of dollars spent in that area of all major league teams. That is not taking a pro-active approach to building for the future and unless you are going to spend like the big 3 on free agents you can not build a perennially competitive team spending on the draft and foreign amateurs like a small market club with no money. That lack of spending will derail the future of a team. Doing so gives a team little to promote from and little to deal from when ops do occur. Further increasing the dread when we do give up young talent and get so little in return.

  23. Badger says:

    I was with you dtw right up to the Ely/Link for Pierre comment. If it had been a straight trade for them, I am down with it. We get two young arms, you get a proven outfielder who can hit .300 and steal 60 bases for you. But it wasn’t a straight up trade. We are paying $10.5 million for those two players. And they ain’t worth it. So, another bone head move by jed clampetti.

    The rest of your post is on the money.

    We are due for some good moves. Good luck with payroll already where it is.

  24. Mark Timmons says:

    dtwdodger,

    I don’t disagree with anything….

  25. Badger says:

    “so when we are able to get Ely/Link in a trade for Pierre and paying salary we actually think we got a good deal”

    “good deal”?

    So, Mark, you think Ely and Link are worth $10.5 million?

    Wow.

    Just add it to the list of things on which we disagree.

  26. Mark Timmons says:

    Badger,

    You need to go back and re-read his post, especially this part here:

    “We are so accustomed to bad trades/signings that when we are able to get an Ely/Link in a trade for Pierre and paying salary we actually think we got a good deal; until we remember how we got in the position of having Pierre to begin with.”

    What’s the issue?

  27. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Actually, the Pierre trade wasn’t all that bad. While we’re paying $10.5 million, we also saved $8 million. Maybe another team would have taken on more of Pierre’s salary, maybe not. The mistake wasn’t the trade, it was signing him in the first place.

  28. Badger says:

    The “we think we got a good deal” part.

    The only people who thought that was a good deal were the Pierre haters. The Dodgers are paying much of Pierre’s salary as he scores 96 runs and steals 68 bases for another team. He hit .308 with 8 triples and 30 stolen bases his last year here, why do the Dodgers have to pay $10.5 million to give him away? Makes no sense to me. He scores 96, steals 68 and we are looking for a left fielder? Dumb.

    And, I actually had the numbers wrong. We are paying Ely and Link $10.8 million.

    The rest of that post was well written and on the money.

  29. Badger says:

    I guess I am the only guy who appreciated what Pierre did for us. He plays everyday, keeps his mouth shut, distracts pitchers and hung in there during Manny’s suspension hitting .300 and helping the Dodgers to the NLCS when our big gun went down.

    And I am the one accused of being negative.

  30. Mark Timmons says:

    I like Pierre. Always have.

    Not a difference maker….

  31. Badger says:

    He was for Chicago.

    96 runs makes a difference. 68 stolen bases makes a difference.

    Hey, jed signed him for an average of $9 million a year. He did what he always does – his first year here he plays in 162 (who does that?) hits .293 with 64 stolen bases and the next year he is in the dog house and on the bench and the Dodgers start looking to dump him. And, then they actually pay somebody to take him. Makes no sense. So much about this Dodger organization makes no sense.

  32. Roger Dodger says:

    Too bad Pierre could not have played 2nd base. Then he would have fit nicely.

  33. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Pierre was traded because the outfield was supposed to be Manny, Kemp, and Ethier. Maybe he even asked for a trade to go somewhere where he would get regular playing time. Surely Pierre was better than we had this year, but I doubt he would have made much of a difference. And not having him around will hopefully force the Dodgers to seek an impact player for the outfield. If they don’t because it’s all about money, then we know why they let him go to save the $8 million.

  34. Bobby says:

    pierre is a good solid player who you can pencil in for certain numbers every single year, and he’ll deliver.

    however, he was overpaid by his dodger contract, so we naturally expected more. thats not fair to him. he did what he could do, and we expected more carl crawford type numbers. not his fault. blame ned for overpaying so the giants didn’t sing him instead. we could’ve easily signed dave roberts for 1 yr, until kemp was ready to start.

    either way, we need a real LF this year. doubt t-rob will be given a shot, and doubt sands will be given a shot, at least not until june/july. doubt gibbons/paul/oltjen/hoffman/etc even deserve a shot.

    i’d rather sign some decent vet to a 1 yr deal, than sign an avg player to a 2-3 yr deal. this will give more time for sands/trob to develop and less pressure for them to be ready opening day.

    i have no hope that we sign crawford or werth. i actually have more hope that we sign beltre for 3b

  35. Badger says:

    Well, at least we all agree that the Pierre contract was another bad contract. I liked Pierre. As a former coach, I REALLY liked players who could hit singles and turn them into doubles by stealing second. And you can put plays on. I’ll tell you something else, most good hitters like hitting with a base stealer on first. You have a distracted pitcher so there are more mistakes in the zone and you get more fastballs to hit.

    But, we have Jay Gibbons so, who needs 96 runs and 60 stolen bases, right?

    I just noticed there is a new post about it all coming down to third base. I haven’t read it yet, but I hope it doesn’t mean we will be counting on Casey Blake to carry this team.

  36. Bluefan says:

    I would pencil DeJesus Jr in at 2B for 2011 for a number of reasons …

    1. Money – Keeping Theriot would cost the team $3 – $4 million more than DeJesus, for similar production, which can be used better elsewhere. Who here doesn’t believe, whether or not you like IDJ2 as a prospect, that he can at least duplicate (.270 .321 .312 .633) Theriot’s 2010 numbers?

    2. Carroll – At 37, JC is not an everyday player, but a quality back-up with solid #’s when he plays. If IDJ2 stumbles, when have a solid, albeit temporary replacement in-house at 2B.

    3. Player Development – The Dodgers are not a lower division market, therefore they can’t go into full fire sale mode and expect fans to show up. In this, they will never be able to have more than one, possibly two rookies in the starting line-up at the same time. We have in our pipeline some very good talent (Dee Gordon, Travyon Robinson, Jerry Sands) in addition to IDJ2 that will be ready to for the opportunity to contribute possibly as early as the second half of 2011. We need to start the process of utilizing our farm system starting with DeJesus Jr in 2011, so we can introduce another prospect(s) in 2012, 2013, etc … The low salary costs for prospects allows a team to keep or acquire the key veterans that form the core of the team.

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