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Why Joe Torre Should Be Fired

Why Joe Torre Should Be Fired

First of all, I do not call for the firing of a Hall-of-Fame Manager like Joe Torre without a great deal of thought and considerable regret.  After all, he is one of the greatest ever, but for “whatever reason”, he has lost his edge.  He is going through the motions, he’s “mailing it in.”  Maybe he dislikes his “lame duck” status. Maybe he feels that Frank and Ned should have gotten him another starter.  Maybe his naming Padilla as opening day starter and making other silly moves is to show his displeasure, or maybe he has just plain lost it.

Whatever it is, caused him to allow Don Mattingly to manage the Dodgers during the spring (maybe he’s still doing it – I don’t know).  He was Manager in name only then.  Did he want a better contract?  Did he ask to manage two more years and the Dodgers said “NO?”   I have no clue, but I do have a few clues after just 20 games:

  • Vicente Padilla named Opening Day Starter?
  • The team has as many errors as games played, and those are actual errors – there are a lot more “mental errors” which don’t show up in the box score.
  • The team plays without passion.
  • How about pitching Troncoso, Sherrill and Link in BOTH games of a doubleheader?   Felony stupid in that kind of weather especially!
  • He manages without passion.
  • These guys are just going through the motions.
  • These guys are playing for themselves, not as a team.

The Dodgers can give it 40 games, or 80 games, but the results will be the same.  Joe Torre has lost the spark.  It’s time for a change.   The Dodgers don’t need a figurehead who can talk to the Larry Kings of the world or have a “Homeboy in the Kentucky Derby.”

The Dodgers need a manager with some passion – a manager who can kick some butts, kick some dirt on umpires and kick-start the Dodgers.

The talent is there – the passion is gone!



Ned Colletti jumps in with his two cents worth according to Tony Jackson of ESPN/Los Angeles:

“I talk to [manager] Joe [Torre] all the time, and he understands my position and my frustration level,” Colletti said. “I have grabbed a couple of players one-on-one to let them know I’m not satisfied with their approach. This isn’t an easy game to play, and when you think you have it mastered and you think you can take it easy and you think you can walk to your position without hustling, the game catches up with you. That is where we are at in some cases right now. Some guys might think they are better than what they are and think the opponent will just roll over.

“We have lost two of three to Cincinnati, two of three to Washington and two of three to Pittsburgh. No offense to those teams, but we are better than they are.”

Colletti specifically called out center fielder Matt Kemp, the reigning National League Gold Glove winner at his position, for his baserunning and defensive play.

“It is below average,” Colletti said. “The baserunning is below average, and the defense is below average. Is it because he got a new [two-year, $10.95 million] deal? I can’t tell you. But you know what? It’s below average, and if this was the last day of the season and people were going for the Gold Glove, his name wouldn’t be on the ballot.

“It is a shame to go from where he was a year ago to revert back to when the ball goes up in the air, you’re not sure where it’s going or if it’s going to get caught.

Finally, Tilden asked Colletti if his message was clear to the players.

“My messages are always clear,” Colletti said. “Whether or not they want to accept it, that is up to them. But I don’t leave much to be deciphered. They aren’t long, and I don’t lose their interest in a minute and a half or two minutes. It is time to get it going. I take every game seriously, and I take every pitch seriously. If other guys ain’t doing it, if they don’t want to be in L.A., we can figure that out, too.”

About Mark Timmons

When you see the invisible, you can do the impossible!

29 Responses to “Why Joe Torre Should Be Fired”

  1. Idaho al says:

    I disagree with you about firing Joe Torre. If you want to fire someone, it should be the general manager and then the pitching coach. Ned has done nothing to help the starting rotation. He has done nothing but sign pitchers who are beyond their prime for very little money. Maybe it is because Ned has no money to spend, I do not know. However, the poor pitching is affecting the entire team. We do not even have one ace. The team is playing poor defensively and base running. Matt Kemp going to third on a ground ball to shortshop was horrible. Plus all the fly balls Kemp has missed. Martin stealing second base with Either batting was a mental mistake. However, if you do not have good pitching, you are going nowhere. Right now the Dodgers do not have good pitching. You need to hang that problem on Ned and Honeycutt. I believe the entire team and Joe are upset because the pitching is in such a horrible mess.

    Idaho al

  2. JDavis says:

    The dodgers are making me sick. Milk was a baaaad choice.

  3. Badger says:

    Let me put this as succinctly as I possibly can:

    al is right.

    and one more quick thing – as most of you know I am not a Ned Colletti fan, but his hands have been tied by an owner that was cavalier in his early ownership spending practices and now has his onions in a vice.

    I hope those of you who have resisted this idea can now see the truth about it.

  4. Ken says:

    Ned’s hands are tied by finances and maybe even Bud, depending upon the actual LA Dodger financial report provided to Bud. Does anyone really think that Bud likes the Dodgers?

    Mark is correct about the Weird Al managing style of Torre. Is he dumb or trying to get fired? Torre has proven that he is no longer needed. He should have gotten himself thrown out of the game yesterday while protecting Loney against the Midget umpire who, acording to his bio, is shorter thatn the MLB minimum umpire height of 5-10. Anyone else see his Napoleonic complex at work? He should be suspended for his actions.

    I vote for passion and Bowa as the interim manager.

    Baseball is not checkers, it is chess. The coaches whould be more attentive to the other teams’ changes in how they approach the Dodgers. The hitters are being pitched to differently than in the first 10 games. Wake up players and coaches.

    The Dodgers have better than a .500 record against the NL West and a terrible record against everyone else. Hum!

  5. Richard Lotz says:

    Don’t blame it on Joe, don’t blame it on Ned, don’t blame it on Honeycutt! You have to see the problem is the owner and or owners, or whatever the hell the McCourts consider themselves. Why the hell do you think Joe doesn’t give a shit? He’s been stripped of the ability to field a team with a starting pitching staff. If the owners don’t appear to give a damn what the hell is Joe to do? Pull a quality pitcher out of his ass! Same applies to all these guys, Ned, Honeycutt, etc. They are trying to polish a f-ing turd, get it!

    The owners love spat/piss/dog and whore fight is f-ing over the fans in LA and other cash-spending fans of the Dodgers (someone who never spends a dime in representing with some team gear, going to the park, purchasing at least a TV baseball package really isn’t a fan. Fanatics aren’t laid back in their support or are they pussies about their money when it comes to spending money on their favorite team. So shake yourself if you don’t do those things, minimally, in your support, otherwise you are a casual observer.)

    Do you see the way our Gold Glove CF is getting a little lazy now on his fielding? Just watch, he is “styling it” to fly balls, last night was a great example, deep fly ball to CF, Styles cruises under it, gets himself in zero position to make a throw to 2B, runner tags at first another runner tags at third, Styles takes the fly, tosses it into second (after having to right his fit, shift his balance, etc, etc) result one run in, man at second in scoring position, 2 outs, next batter please. Does that have something to do with his thinking he is The Shit now or does he get the attitude flowing down from the top?

    On more thing, morphine to all the Haeger-aholics that were squirting his praises for so long. Rehab time for you drunks!

  6. Roger Dodger says:

    I said in some of the Spring Training games, that some of the players were mailing it in (their performances).

    For a week or so in the season — the guys were really bringing it home — with great play, then blowing games.

    Now — the ship is drifting. With no obvious course. Any manager is great when the team is winning. It is not the same when other teams have more passion and drive.

    Footnote: only 1 team in major league baseball has less win and more losses — and that is Baltimore.

    So right now, the Dodgers are racing the Orioles and I am not sure who will win that race.

    The season is young. Changes will be made. The passion will come back.

    Again, the baseball writers were right. The Dodgers did not repair their pitching staff. Right now their 3rd place pick might be hard to attain.

  7. Mark Timmons says:


    Check it out above.

  8. DRomo says:

    I agree whole heartedly with Ned today. Something is up with Matt Kemp, especially in the field. I know he cares. At least I think I know he cares, but he is playing in the field like he is lost. That is not acceptable.

    I love seeing the passion out of Loney last night, who knew? I don’t know if it is the East Coast travel or what but something is missing this year. The games I have watched jsut seem like this team is flat.

    Even I feel somewhat uninterested, but that may have to do with Eric Collins. Can we please have him fired? I don’t need him to call our team “Los Angeles”.

    “First up for Los Angeles is Rafeal Furcal…”

    It is a LA broadcast and I am in the LA area you dope. Why don’t home teams wear the city across thier chest? Because we know where our team is from!! Maybe it is because he lives and Chicago and never even comes to LA, he doesn’t get it. Hate is a strong word…but I HATE listening to him. It wasn’t so bad when we were winning last season but this season sucks so far. Maybe we can pry Ross Porter away from a bar somewhere or bring back Charlie Stiener to the TV side, something please!!!

  9. mark says:

    Using payroll as an excuse is a crutch. Cot’s contracts has the Padres at $37.7 mil and the Dodgers at $102 million. Currently, the Dodgers are in last place with the highest payroll in the NL west. The lowest payroll team is in first, so how much more should the Dodgers have spent. Payroll is the smokescreen. The truth is that the team is unmotivated, dis-passionate and under performing.

  10. mark says:

    Payroll is not responsible for that. The Manager is.

  11. mark says:

    Do the Dodgers have to spend more than anyone in the division to win? They spend 3 times what the Padres are spending. What should they do, Spend 4 times that?

  12. chucky says:

    I am sick and have this bad feeling it is going to be a VERY LONG season. Ownership did fail us (no new starter), the manager has failed us (motativate the players), the players have failed us (get motativate and play smart or take your money and go home). It is time for our manger to kick some A– and bench some of these slacking players (even Kemp). If the season is over then bring in the young pitchers (and players – ZPaul) and let them get used to the show (even if this means they get bombed).

    This said, we are only 20 games into the season (though the injuries are mounting up)and baseball is a crazy sport (lets talk last year’s Rockies team) so do we start throwing out the baby with the bathtub??? MAYBE….

    Peace (I wish I could find it)

  13. Badger says:

    Speaking of Cots:

    Should the Dodgers outspend the Padres? Duh. You want a Padre like payroll, then you need a different organizational paradigm, beginning with new ownership.

    This is a team that should have a similar payroll to the Yankees, but instead they are paying ex-wives, lawyers and ballplayers that are no longer with the team.

    Payroll is not a smokescreen, payroll is an indication of the health of a franchise. The Dodgers own their own stadium, have a t.v. deal in place (cable will come eventually, after the deal with the evil empire is retired) and have a yearly attendance figure that most teams would love to have. The fact that they cannot afford to bid on pitching tells me something is wrong. Mark, you can continue supporting your theory, but many of us see this much differently.

    Changing managers might do something to charge up the current players. But the fact that the starting pitching is in trouble will continue to bite any new manager in the ass.

    The Phils win the N.L. pennant and can afford to sign Halladay and extend Howard. We let Wolf walk, give DeWitt an All Star’s position and sign nobody for the rotation. I said a long time ago – “what you see is what you are going to get.” And guess what, I was right. Nobody came, and nobody is coming.

    Good luck Joe.

  14. mark says:

    “This is a team that should have a similar payroll to the Yankees.”

    Huh? On what planet?

    The Yankees are worth $1.6 billion and have revenue of $441 million. The Dodgers are worth $727 million and have operating income of $247 million.

    The Dodgers payroll is $102 million which means that they spend about 41% of income on payroll.

    The Yankees payroll is $213 million which means that they spend 48% of income on payroll.

    Using that rationale, the Dodgers should have spent $17 million more. If they had offered arbitration to Wolf and Hudson, they would have spent more than that.

    I believe that the Dodgers WILL take on payroll this year, if they have a chance to win, but if the Dodgers spent $213 mil like the Yanks, they would be out of business.

  15. GoNzO says:

    Hey guys haven’t had a lot of time to comment, but if i recall correctlly there were three of us from this board (Badger, Ken and Myself)that constantly pinned the bulls eye on McCourt. Mark, you say that payroll has nothing to do with it but it does to some extent. Ned overpaid for some players; therefore, our team salary looks high on paper. Does anyone think that Ned and McC would love a mulligan on Manny, Jones and Pierre?

    Kemp needs to get slapped on the back of the head just to remember where he stands in the MLB totem pole.

    As for Joe, I been on record saying his hiring was to sell tickets and nothing more. He is an awful manager. The only times he won a championship was when good ol’ Don Zimmer was telling him what to do.

    I don’t think mattingly is the long term answer. Bowa for the rest of the season would work for me, and just my opinion but the game and the way that it’s magaed has changed so the Torre’s style just doesn’t work anymore. Yeah he’s good doing interviews and commercials and gives the franchise a face but give me Manuel or Gardenhire anyday. These guys protect their players and don’t put up with their crap (Jimmy Rollins). The Dodgers need a top to bottom change, hell I wouldn’t mind Wallach managing he looks like a good one.

  16. Badger says:

    I said similar Mark, not the same.

    The reason we don’t have a “similar” payroll is because of who MLB approved as owner of the Dodgers. Do you remember when that deal first went down the conversations we had on the other board about it? Well I do. I said then something was fishy about it, that the leverage was all wrong, the McCourts (who I didn’t know from McMartians) were alarmingly underfunded. It was then, 6 years ago, that I first asked you about the cable deal – and why in the world would the new Dodger owner have to be subsidised by the old Dodger owner and told “NO CABLE DEAL” for 7 year? That was weird man, and it stunk. I told you this could happen….. and lookie here. It has indeed happened.

    The McCourts were McWrong from the very beginning and this outcome was not only predictable, it was in fact predicted.

    As we continue to lose, and the pitching continues to fail, I will continue to be hopeful. It’s still early and I am willing to agree there is still time to get it turned it around. But one thing I am not willing to do, is to sit silently while others continue to keep their head in the sand.

    I don’t know about the manager. Maybe those of you who believe Joe is the problem all right about him, but I still say it doesn’t matter who is managing this mess, until we get pitching we can score 6 a game and be no better than a .500 club.

  17. McCheapne$$$$$ says:

    Hahahaha everybody here needs to stop trying to change Marks mind over mCdork. His nuthuggery is so big right now because McCheap gave him more tickets.. Hahahah

  18. Michael says:

    Very valid points all except that gnat that keeps buzzing around. I thinks it’s a case of Frank getting back some really bad Karma; either that or Jamie put a voodoo curse on him. On the positive side, Vinnie’s back, can’t wait for his [take] blunt assessment.

  19. Mark Timmons says:

    I think some of you need to get your facts right instead of starting at the bottom line and working up.

    First of all, the Rangers, Yankees, Mets, Cubs and Nationals are all leveraged higher than the Dodgers, so the leverage part is BS!

    Forget “Salary” because “Player Expenses” is a more accurate measure. That’s what the teams actually spent on players because it includes benefits and bonuses. Now, compare Player Expenses to Gate Receipts.

    Yankees – Player Expenses $240 mil/Gate Receipts $319 mil
    Red Sox – Player Expenses $145 mil/Gate Receipts $171 mil
    Cubs – Player Expenses $151 mil/Gate Receipts $137 mil
    Mets – Player Expenses $152 mil/Gate Receipts $164 mil
    Phillies- Player Expenses $143 mil/Gate Receipts $123 mil
    Dodgers – Player Expenses $125 mil/Gate Receipts $116 mil

    The Yanks and Red Sox spend less on players than what their gate receipts are. The Dodgers are in line with the rest of the pack.

    The Yankees, Mets and Phillies all had the city build them a stadium and have little debt for the stadium. The Dodgers own their stadium.

    The average ticket price is as follows:

    Yanks – $67
    Red Sox $50
    Cubs – $48
    Mets – $37
    Phillies $31
    Dodgers $30

    How about the Dodgers raise ticket prices to what the Yanks are? You want to pay more than double the price?

    It ain’t like you say!

    At least you have some rationale about it Badger, while McCheapness with her single digit IQ has ZERO understanding.

  20. Ty says:

    It went from every Dodger outside of Sherrill having career years to this? That was pretty quick Mark

  21. Mark Timmons says:

    I’d like to see where I predicted that.

    Somebody said I predicted that, but that’s not accurate.

    But, they still can have a great year, if they get rid of Torre!

  22. Ken says:

    Ely’s stats may not look that great today but I think that he learned something about pitching in innings 3-6 and his performance was actually better than Padilla and Haeger’s when considering all of the circumstances, e.g., ERA, WHIP, and IP/Game.

  23. Mark Timmons says:

    One bad inning – Ely could be a #5 guy.

  24. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    I was at the game today (still thawing out). Ely settled down in the final few innings. It seems to me that, although he doesn’t throw very hard (mostly mid to upper 80′s), he does seem proficient at changing speeds. My vantage point wasn’t perfect, but it appeared that he had a pretty good slider, and broke off a few nice curves at about 68 mph. Seems also to have a good change. In essence, it appears his success will depend on whether or not he can locate his pitches and stay ahead in the count.

    I’m sure someone can look this up, but I believe that the Yankees and Mets both own their new ballparks.

    Also, I question the accuracy of measuring a team’s player expenses against its baseball revenue. The regional networks of teams like the Yankees and Mets are separate and apart from the baseball operations. So while those teams may lose money on the baseball side, they are probably very proitable overall.

  25. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Above it should be “profitable”, NOT “proitable”. Edit/Preview button.

  26. Jared Massey says:

    Once the Fox Sports contract expires (I think after the 2013 contract), I’m sure McCourt (if he still owns the team) would love to create his own RSN, which would undoubtedly allow him to boost payroll.

    I really have to question Colletti’s public criticism though. After all, he’s the one responsible for assembling the roster, and for him to throw the players in front of the bus like this doesn’t seem constructive to me. I know it could be a bit of negative reinforcement, but this could backfire big time.

  27. Badger says:

    How ’bout those Mets. I thought somebody in here said they were a mess. 9 in a row and they cleaned our clock.

    Mark, we could go ’round and ’round about this, but everything I read about the McCourt purchase said he borrowed most of the money, including some from Fox. Then there was that “no cable” deal. It stunk, still stinks, and will continue to stink for a couple more years. And Brooklyn’s point about operating definitions is a good one.

    As for the average ticket price, I just read up on that. You make a point. But, allow me a counterpoint – the Dodgers have 10,000 seats, mostly in the nose bleed section that go for around $8. The capacity of Dodger Stadium is 56,000, leaving 46,000 regular priced tickets. The capacity of the parks of the teams that are above the Dodgers in ticket prices? – Red Sox 37,000, Cubs 41,000, Phillies 43,000, Mets 42,000 – the Yankers don’t count. They are in a different league in a parallel universe.

    McCourt is a problem. I would put it up for vote, but I think that is unnecessary. My summary of the case, the reasoning behind my decision along with obvious concurring opinion is sufficient for judgment on the matter.

    So…. that’s it. It’s final.

  28. Mark Timmons says:


    The City of New York owns both ballparks. $1.1 bil for the Yanks!

    Here’s the proof:

    You can scroll ahead for the Mets…

  29. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Thanks Mark.


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