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Second-Guessers Are Never Wrong

Second-Guessers Are Never Wrong

Closer or Impostor?

Now that it’s all over, we can look back and say that Joe Torre should have brought Jon Broxton in and we would have won right? Broxton has never been known to blow a game right.  Broxton breezed last night, right?  Now, if he had brought in Brox and he had lost the game, you be saying the same thing.  Second-guessers are never wrong.  Managers are frequently wrong.  I don’t even have to ask – I can tell you why Joe brought in George Sherrill:  Confidence!   Joe wanted to help restore his confidence by showing that he had confidence in him “You are my guy.  This is your game” is what Joe was saying.  Now, it obviously didn’t work, and us second-guessers had it all figured out.

Was it bullpen mismanagement or was it a calculated decision gone awry? I think some of you may look at it a little differently from Joe.  I think Joe sees Broxton and Sherrill as “almost” interchangeable parts.  I think he wants to use Sherrill in closing situations, and the fact of the matter is, the Dodgers do need  George Sherill to be a general facsimile of himself last season.  Don’t forget, the dude put up a 1.70 ERA last year.  Jon Broxton allowed almost a run more a game!   Now, I am not a big Sherrill fan, and if you are like me, you may feel Broxton should have been in there.  However, in this case, I don’t!  It wasn’t poor planning – Joe wants to see what to expect from George. Right about now, those expectations are pretty low, I would say.

Joe has to see who he can and can’t trust.  Can Troncoso and Sherrill be trusted to close?  Tonight doesn’t say they can’t, but you have to consider what happened.  If it keeps up, then… NO they can’t!  Sherrill has been out of whack all spring, but thought he got straightened out this week.  Maybe.  Maybe not!  There are no excuses, he should have been able to hold a two run lead, but the ump was squeezing him.  Even the Marlins announcers thought so…. and said it as well!  Still no excuse, but it was  a factor.  He wasn’t beat like a rented mule, but he wasn’t effective.

It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but sometimes you can win a war by losing a battle!

Dodger Notes:

  • Remember that during Spring Training, I said Raffy looked good and not to worry about his hitting as it would come.  It has!  Raffy is back.
  • Brad Ausmus is on the DL according to Tony Jackson of ESPN/LosAngeles and evidently Russ Martin was the only catcher available for the Dodgers last night.
  • Russ Martin is defying the skeptics and getting off to a good start.  Pencil him in for an excellent year.
  • Padilla will pitch much better than he has… unless he is injured.  He might be…
  • The Dodgers hitting with RISP is still poor, but Andre Ethier and Matt Kemp are leading the way.  Kemp already has 7 RBI.  This aspect of the game HAS to improve.
  • I’m anxious to see Mr. Charlie tomorrow… who will be caught by AJ Ellis.

UPDATE:

Standing in front of his locker with bags of ice wrapped to his left shoulder and elbow, the Dodgers’ closer-for-the-night offered a few explanations for what happened, among them, that some strikes he threw weren’t called for strikes.

As the postgame conversation neared its end, Sherrill finally offered an excuse-free summation of the evening.

“We battled back and took the lead,” he said. “I lost it.”

Despite Sherrill’s posting a 7.50 earned-run average in spring training and having mixed results in his first two appearances of the regular season, Manager Joe Torre went to him in the ninth inning on a night when closer Jonathan Broxton was unavailable.

Even after Sherrill’s latest failure, Torre stood by the reliever, saying he would continue to be the Dodgers’ eighth-inning pitcher.

“He’s been a closer,” Torre said of the former All-Star, who was acquired on the eve of the trade deadline last year. “Because someone has a bad spring, I won’t ignore his history. I’ll continue to send him out there.”

Torre said he never considered using Broxton, who had pitched in the two previous games and was forced to warm up multiple times Friday night.

About Mark Timmons

When you see the invisible, you can do the impossible!

47 Responses to “Second-Guessers Are Never Wrong”

  1. DRomo says:

    I could be way off here but some guys lose “it” after they are closers, then made set-up men, then back to closers again. Gagne popped into my head. With all his arm injuries I remember him looking damn good in Texas before being traded to Boston. He was terrible as a set up guy and worse when he tried to close again after that. Sherrill will be fine but last night was brutal. We needed that win.

    Has Ellis caught Charlie Knuckles much? For his sake I hope he has. That dancer might make AJ look foolish if he hasn’t.

  2. Mark Timmons says:

    Romo,

    The difference between Gagne and Sherrill is obvious- NO Juice! ;)

    Ellis caught Haeger 8-10 times in AAA last year.

  3. Mark Timmons says:

    I watched the replay of Kemp’s catches last night.

    1. I thought that the double in the 9th was catchable, but watching him, I think he lost the ball in the lights. I will be interested if he says that. It was a big blast, but it was catchable and may ave changed the outcome of the game.

    2. On the sac fly, he had to go back to catch the ball, so he had no time to set. He was flat-footed when he threw because of having to go back on it. Matt has a great arm – Paul has a better one, but the runner was speedy and no one would have gotten him.

  4. Roger Dodger says:

    Wow, did you see that catch yesterday by that Dodger?? If was the catch of the night. You make catches like that one that that Dodger made — and it can transform your team. A great Dodger catch . . .

    Oh, wait a minute, did I say by a Dodger? I mean former Dodger, former Dodger Franlkin Guiterrez. It was the MLB Network catch of the night. If you missed this great catch of the night by the Dodger, I mean former Dodger — here:

    http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7368967&c_id=sea

    On the throw to home by Kemp, if the ball is a few feet to the left, the runner might have been out. I know you don’t get them all the time, but it would have been a great play.

  5. Roger Dodger says:

    On Furcal. I disagree with Mark about Spring Training. I thought he looked terrible hitting in Arizona.

    Stats: average: .222. 63 ABs, 14 hits, zero HRs, zero triples, 2 doubles, and 12 singles. OBP .292.

    But for the real season, he looks great.

    See, Spring Training can fool ya.

  6. Ken says:

    Some of us are actually yelling at the More On King during the game while he is making his Weird Al decisions. Therefore we are not second guessers.

    Pitches per day by Weaver since the season began 4,0,1,13,0,8
    Now who can tell me that Weaver is being utilized properly?? Not being utilized propely can mean too often, not often enough, too many pitches, not enough pitches, too many innings, not enough innings, wrong situation, wrong batters, wrong ball park, etc.

    Does he even remember his name – LOL

    Torre lost yesterday’s game by not having the correct relief pitches backing up Russ Ortiz during the prior game. Therefore he had to bring in Broxton to close that game. No body else was ready to pick up for a failing Ortiz. In this part of the season, when the pitcher’s endureance is not built up enough to go 3 days in a row the bull pen must be managed much better than it currently is.

  7. Ken says:

    PS Any 30 year old alleged man who earns $4 mil per year and needs to regain his confidence should go back to kindergarden and sit on his Daddy’s knee while eating cotton candy. MAN UP all of you sissy baseball players who have never had the stones to be a man. Self Confidence naturally comes from your relationship with your Daddy. Put that in Logan’s Draft Day analysis as the number one Factor for drafting or trading for a player. I am sick of hearing that Baseball players lose their confidence and that is while they can not perform. That is an excuse for a little kid in the 3rd grade.

  8. A Shot of Haeger says:

    I’m Mr. Positive, but Torre miscalculated his bullpen usage the past three days

  9. A Shot of Haeger says:

    It’s Moving Day….. Time for our conquering hero to move up the career win chart.

    It’s Haeger Time!!!!

  10. Mark Timmons says:

    Well, all I am telling you (right or wrong) is that Joe regards Sherrill as a co-closer. He planned to do that. Obviously he miscalculated, but if Sherrill had done what he should have easily done, we are not having this conversation.

    I don’t see it as a case of Torre picking the wrong pitcher (although looking back, he did). It is a case of a player who has delivered repeatedly, not delivering. Pure and simple!

    And that IS second-guessing!

    BTW, Joe says he will do it again.

    I’ll tell you this as well. Broxton’s velocity was off during the Spring and I think Joe wanted him to pitch two days in a row, skip one and then build him up slowly.

    The same people who blast him for burning out pitchers by pitching them too much also blast him for not pitching them enough.

    Second Guessers are NEVER wrong, but there are some things you have to consider:

    1. Joe talks to the players and trainers every day. You don’t. So admit that you don’t have a clue as to how much a pitcher can pitch. He does. Brox may have told him that his arm was tired.

    2. Joe has to make a snap decision – he doesn’t have the luxury of second-guessing.

    On confidence: The human psyche is a very complicated thing. I don’t care who you are, but when things are going bad, everyone has some questions. When your manager shows confidence in you (like your dad), it has to be a boost. Not an excuse, just a reason.

    On Furcal: Raffy looked bad with the bat in the spring, but his bat was quick, he was quicker and most importantly, he looked healthy. At 31 years old, a guy doesn’t forget how to hit. I knew he would be alright after seeing how healthy he was. That’s why I said he looked good. That is a classic example of where stats lie!

    • Ken says:

      Ok even if Sherrill is going to have a feast or famine season like Broxton did last year then Torre should have learned his lesson with Broxton last year and have someone in the bullpen ready for the famine days. It is compeltely moronic to never have a single pitcher in the bullpen to replace an alleged or actual closer when thy OBVIOUSLY can’t pitch that day.

  11. steevo17 says:

    Today is officially Charlie Haeger Day…I look forward to a successful start and a Dodger victory.

    That said, Torre is terrible at taking care of his bullpen. I blame Mr. Pitching Coach Rick Honeycutt as well. His main responsibility, I would think, is having the bullpen ready on a daily basis for Torre’s gametime use. Either way, I’m really frustrated by Torre’s seemingly random use of the bullpen this early in the season.

    I thought Troncoso could have finished the game, he was throwing just fine, 10 strikes in 13 pitches. It would have been nice for Sherrill to have saved the game, but like you say Mark, hindsight is always 20/20. I hope he stays true to his previous history and improves as the season goes. He is so much more important as the only lefty in the pen right now and needs to come through for us…soon.

    On the bright side again, we started last year at 2-3. So maybe we are on the right track to a good year again.

    DODGERS IN 2010!!!

  12. Mark Timmons says:

    The guy who is terrible at taking care of his bullpen has had the top bullpen the past two years. Can you imagine how good they would have been without Torre? ;)

  13. Ty says:

    Andre Ethier was held out of the lineup on his birthday Saturday night with a sprained left ankle for the third straight game, but he still found a way to deliver, with a two-run pinch single in the eighth inning. But even though Ethier supplied the cake, the birthday party was ruined by poor planning from Joe Torre. The Dodgers held a 6-4 lead entering the ninth inning, but with closer Jonathan Broxton unavailable, George Sherrill coughed up the lead, giving the Marlins a 7-6 comeback victory. How did we get to this point, you ask? Let’s go back in time to Wednesday night in Pittsburgh…

    * Wednesday: Tied 3-3 entering the 10th inning, Torre saves Broxton for a save situation that never comes, rather than use him to help keep the game tied. Ramon Ortiz gives up a run in the 10th, giving the Pirates the win
    * Thursday: Now that Broxton hasn’t pitched for six days, he “needs work” and is inserted into the finale in Pittsburgh with the Dodgers leading 10-2.
    * Friday: Russ Ortiz began the ninth inning in Pittsburgh leading 7-1, but was pulled with one out and the bases loaded. In comes Jonathan Broxton to get two outs, entering a game in which the Dodger win expectancy was already 98%.
    * Tonight: Now that Broxton has pitched in two straight games, he is unavailable tonight to protect a 6-4 lead

    That, my friends, is the vicious cycle of incorrect bullpen usage. Over the last four games, Broxton was unavailable in the two games he was needed most, both which ended as Dodger losses. Both losses may have ended differently with a few bounces going the Dodgers’ way, but it would be nice if our chances of winning would have been maximized. With Hong-Chih Kuo on the disabled list, Sherrill struggling, and Ronald Belisario still a couple weeks away from returning, the bullpen is really thin right now. It would be nice to use out best reliever when he is needed most.

    —–TrueBlueLA.com

    Blame should be put on Torre. Mark makes it too easy some times to poke holes in his arguments.

    “Broxton has never been known to blow a game right”: Obviously a saracastic remark. All closers blow games eventually but Broxton had a save percentage of 86% last year while Sherrill was at 81% during his time as closer (mostly in Baltimore). The probability of Broxton blowing one was LOWER than Sherrill.

    “Broxton breezed last night, right?”: Was last night a save situation? There have been numerous examples of dominant closers who struggle in non-save situations. Most knowledgeable fans know this.

  14. lawdog says:

    Actually, Joe proved himself to be unfit last night. It’s one thing to start with Trancosco and Sherrill when you ha ve a 2 run lead going into the bottom of the ninth. It’s another not to have Broxton ready to go when Sherrill loads the bases with no outs. If Broxton wasn’t hurt, Joe’s mind wasn’t alert! He must be getting “old-timer’s disease”.

    It was a shame as well since we played lights out to come back after trailing 4-3 going into the 8th.

    Joe needs to eat more greenies and pay attention–or retire and drink green tea.

  15. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    I NEVER SECOND GUESS!!!!!!!!!

    My comments last night were the same as my thoughts DURING THE GAME. As for Sherrill, I haven’t liked him since last year, even when he was doing well. Torre has a right to think otherwise, but there is no reason for him to have used Broxton the night before if it was going to make him unavailable last night.

    And if Torre wants to boost his confidence, let him start by getting Sherrill pitching well in less critical situations, and use him to close when Broxton isn’t available after he’s pitched well with some consistency. Heck, want to show confidence in a pitcher. Then I would have preferred Monasterios (but that’s second guessing).

  16. lawdog says:

    My comments also were exactly what I was thinking in real time last night. Not second guessing Torre. I was first guessing and found him coming up wanting.

  17. lawdog says:

    In addition to starting him every 5th day, Joe could probably get a lot of mileage out of Haeger coming in in middle relief every other day or so–keep that dancer sharp! Great contrast to Broxton’s heat to close it out as well.

    Sherrill and Weaver obviously don’t belong on the club. Cut ‘em and bring ups some young guys with heat!

  18. lawdog says:

    Great game by Chuck Haeger today! (Except for the one home run.) 12 ks in 6 innings with 116 pitches. I think he got squeezed in the 4th by the ump and it effected his command. :shock:

  19. lawdog says:

    Give Can’tdo credit, the ball he hit out danced as well as any dancer thrown by Charlie all day. Sometimes the blind squirrel gets a nut…

  20. Mark Timmons says:

    Ty,

    You are a legend in your own mind, if you think you poked holes in my argument! My argument wasn’t whether or not Sherrill should have come in. I don’t even like Sherrill. My argument is that Joe Torre wanted to see what he could expect from Sherrill which is why he put him in.

    All of you who are arguing that Broxton should have been put in are also the same ones who say our pitching staff doesn’t pitch deep enough into games. Then you complain that Torre overworks his pen. When you have to rely on the pen to pitch as much as the Dodgers are, YOU HAD BETTER HAVE MORE THAN ONE CLOSER!

    BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO NEED A CLOSER A LOT MORE!

    TORRE CANNOT RELY ON ONE GUY TO CLOSE 90+ GAMES!

    You can’t have it both ways.

    That’s my argument. Now poke holes in that!

  21. Mark Timmons says:

    And here’s the flaw in TrueBlue LA’s thinking as well:

    What if Russ Ortiz had given up a grand slam (and he’s fully capable)? Then it’s 7-5. Who do you bring in then? Or, do you let him blow the game?

    See, in all of this you are dealing with hypotheticals.

    And back to the 3-3 game. If Joe had used him then, and the Dodgers had not scored, you all would be saying the same thing.

    Usually the people who second-guess like this and YES IT IS SECOND-GUESSING, have never managed any more than their own lives (and sometimes do a poor job of that), let alone 25 players.

    I can think of about 5 managers I would rather have than Torre, but he didn’t get where he is by being stupid.

    Sometimes you guys kill me!

    Yeah, cut Sherrill and Weaver after one or two bad outings. That makes perfect sense!

    I many have to quit this gig as somedays I just cannot tolerate the lunacy and tunnel vision.

  22. lawdog says:

    Face it, Tronocsco, Bellasario, Broxton and one Ortiz are the only relievers that inspire any confidence.. Better fix it now–not later!

  23. lawdog says:

    Haeger, like Sherrill yesterday, got squeezed by the home plate umpire in the 4th inning. Pitches that were clearly called strikes in the first three innings were called balls in the 4th. It rattled Chuck a little and led to two walks. The pitch hit by Can’tDo” was as pretty a dancer as Charlie had thrown all day. Give the guy credit. Trying to hit a good dancer is like trying to hit a gnat with a sledgehammer–in the air!

    Even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while. But Haeger looks like we’ve got a real diamond in the rough here! An innings eater who has an almost “unhittable” pitch.

    For those who scoff at a knuckleball pitcher remember what Don Sutton said about his curve: “Hey, if they can’t hit it, who’s to say it’s not a ‘dominant’ pitch?”

    12 strikeouts in 6 innings! 3 hits, 4 walks, 3 earned runs and 116 pitches! Thank you Mr. K!

  24. lawdog says:

    Weaver has been hanging on by his pinkies the last two years. When he comes in he inspires on confidence in me. Maybe that’s just me, but I’ll bet he’s off the roster by the All Star break. Sherrill was awful this spring and looks the same since the bell rang. Trade him while he has value. Bring up Elbert and McDonald. Bring back Bellisario and let’s see what we can do with players we can have confidence in. It’s way to early to be looking this bad in the pen. We need to give the roster a shuffle and go with guys with better stuff–even if they aren’t a week away from geezing–the way Torre loves ‘em.

    NO MORE GEEZERS! Free Elbert, McDonald and Bellasario. Pass on Weaver and Sherrill.

  25. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    “Now poke holes in that.”

    The Dodger bullpen is thin now without Belisario and Kuo. And in Kuo’s case, who knows if he’s ever coming back (or how long he will last if he does). Torre, of course, knows this, and certainly must be aware that he needs to get max use out of Broxton at this time.

    Surely, Torre knew that the Dodgers will not have to use Broxton on Monday, since they have the day off. That being the case, he should have stayed away from Broxton on Friday night, and given a confidence booster to someone else to finish out the game that night. That would have made Broxton available on both Saturday and Sunday.

    The pitching staff didn’t pitch deep enough into games last year, and Broxton only appeared in 73 games, NOT an exaggerated 90+.

    Sherrill may have closing experience, but that was with a second division team. But that aside, yesterday was not the time to show confidence in a pitcher who not only struggled in spring training (which I really don’t take seriously), but also since the season started.

    You’re right, Russ Ortiz is certainly capable of giving up a grand slam. But if he had done so, the Dodgers still would have had a 2-run lead. Which leaves some breathing room to bring in Troncoso, Ramon Ortiz, Sherrill, Weaver or Monasterios, all who were available in the bullpen. And if Sherrill is your second closer, what better spot to bring him into the game. He closes out the game and gains confidence, all at the same time.

    What I object to most is your insistence that those of us who questioned the move to Sherrill are all second guessing. I said it before, and I’ll repeat it here, my thoughts about bringing in Sherrill occurred to me when I saw Broxton sitting and Sherrill warming up in the bullpen. And to address an earlier comment you made about how second guessers would have reacted if Broxton had come in and blown the game. Well this second guesser addressed that in an earlier post (previous thread) when stated that I understood that Broxton could have blown the game, but that I would have accepted it as a bad outing by our closer.

    You said, “Usually the people who second-guess like this and YES IT IS SECOND-GUESSING, have never managed any more than their own lives (and sometimes do a poor job of that), let alone 25 players.”

    That may be true for some people, but certainly not me, since I am an active managing partner in two companies that combined have a lot more than 25 employees. I even manage my own life. But unlike you, I do all of that imperfectly, and with a lot less arrogance.

  26. lawdog says:

    Well said, BD. I concur. Anybody who thinks I’m second guessing just needs to ask Ruth. The way Torre has managed the pen in the first game has made me mad enough to throw large solid objects at the screen.

    And I managed an office with 4 secretaries myself and did fairly well. I don’t know why opinions can’t be stated here without all the vitriolic crap. Mark should know by now that he isn’t going to shout us down by calling us idiots. :shock:

  27. lawdog says:

    The bullpen was one of the great strengths of last year’s Dodgers team, but right now it’s a weakness.

    The Dodgers are essentially without three of their top four relievers, and it cost them in their disappointing 2-4 road trip, dropping series to Pittsburgh and Florida teams they should have owned.

    They gave up late leads in both their one-run losses to the Marlins. Last season they were 28-22 in one-run games. Right now, it’s not the same team. Certainly not the same bullpen.

    That has to be one frustrated team heading back to the West Coast for their home-opener on Tuesday.

    Jeff Weaver has been pitching well, but appearing for the fifth time in six games, he surrendered the tying and winning run in the seventh.

    This after Matt Kemp continued to play center curiously, simply dropping what looked like a routine fly for an error that led to one Florida run in the sixth.

    The way the Dodgers are pitching, they can’t afford to play the field so poorly. In six games, they received only one outstanding start, Hiroki Kuroda.

    Charlie Haeger actually pitched well, but for one bad pitch to Jorge Cantu that he sent somewhere into Georgia for a three-run homer. Haeger’s knuckleball was doing its thing, accounting for a career-high 12 strikeouts. He also walked four and threw three wild pitches.

    He left after six innings (117 pitches) with the Dodgers up 5-4. At the moment too large of a task for the bullpen.

    As long as the Dodgers are receiving so-so starting pitching, their bullpen has to resemble last season’s unit.

    — Steve Dilbeck

  28. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Well said yourself, Lawdog. The vitriol is absolutely unnecessary. And stating my opinion is what I do, while always recognizing that my opinion isn’t the only one, and certainly isn’t always the correct one. I make it a point not to insult anyone, and certainly I’m not going to be calling people I don’t know, idiots. Nothing could be more idiotic.

  29. Mark Timmons says:

    I didn’t call you idiots, but no matter what you all say, it is second-guessing. Let me go over this one more time by asking you some questions?

    Question 1: If Sherrill had gotten the save, would we be having this discussion?

    Question 2: Since our starters don’t pitch deep into games, does anyone really believe that we only need one closer?

    Question 3: How well did Sherril do last year compared to any other pitcher on the Dodgers active roster in terms of ERA and WHIP?

    Question 4: Was it Torre who decided to pay Sherrill $4.5 mil this year?

    Question 5: Is it more important to win one game or to win a championship?

    Ned Colletti (not Joe Torre) decided to keep George Sherrill this year and pay him close to “closers money” (for the record, I felt that Sherrill would not duplicate what he did last year when he was arguably the Dodgers best bullpen pitcher. I felt he should have been traded).

    However, since Dodger starters do not pitch late in games (at least so far), it is imperative that someone other than Broxton should be able to close on a limited basis. When you pay a guy $4.5 mil a year, he should be able to do that. Joe is playing the card Ned dealt him and should be able to rely on that pitcher to hold a two-run lead.

    If that guy can’t do it, then Ned needs to get Joe someone who can, because the way it looks, we may need a game closed 60-90 times and Brox can’t do all that. Now is the time to find this out.

    For the record, I am with you guys – I would not have put Sherrill in, but as the Manager of the Dodgers, Joe Torre has to determine if the players he has been given can fulfill their roles. What happened to Sherrill doesn’t mean that he can’t close, but he can’t have many more meltdowns. If he does, Joe can then go to Ned and say “I need another closer” which could be Belisario or Kuo.

    I am with you in thinking Sherrill is not a good fit on this team, but to prove or dis-prove that point, Joe has to let him do it. Joe is looking at the big picture. You all are just looking at one game.

  30. Roger Dodger says:

    I always remember a presentation I heard on leadership some years ago — that when a person who thinks they are superior to others in a field, and see things different from others in that field, thus see others as idiots and stupid. And at times see them as nails, that need to be driven into a wood block.

    Hey, this is a baseball team that has been playing in a season for 6 days now. And, they look terrible. Terrible pitching. Unlucky. Not doing some of the basics. Manny has hardly hit the ball. Ethier has been out. Two key middle relief pitchers are not even on the roster. The team is still short two real starters, and two other guys are trying to fill those roles. The two young guys (Clayton and Chad) just plain do not have command of their pitches yet. And they did not most of the games last year.

    On paper, other teams look better. And other teams are playing better.

    Badger and I have said that the Dodgers see like a .500 club this year, well after they win a couple of more games — they will be a .500 club.

  31. Mark Timmons says:

    Lawdog,

    What if we could get a Relief Pitcher who did this last year:

    1.70 ERA
    69 IP
    53 H
    24 BB
    61 K
    .209 BA against him
    1.12 WHIP
    21 Saves

    Could he help?

  32. Ken says:

    This is Idiotic. Mark you are either not able to believe anyone that told you that they were yelling contemporaneously at the tv or you do not know what second guessing actually means. Not only do some of us yell at Torre, and the poeple that he listens to, when he is doing or not doing things, but some of us also think about the team’s strategy before the game even starts. The same false accusations were leveled at us last year so last year I periodically posted my views about who should pitch and who should not pitch. If you do not believe any of us then I, and maybe a few others, will gladly post pregame strategies everyday.

  33. lawdog says:

    Sounds like fun, Ken. Count me in. Maybe we should have a “pre-game day” thread so we can all post what we’d do and what we expect to see from good old Joe.

    And Mark, obviously if we had last year’s Sherrill we’d be in better shape. unfortunately, Sherrill ain’t the same guy. The fact we overpay him is irrelevant to the numbers he puts up this year as a “reliever”. (Keep him away from the matches and kerosene.)

    Sherrill is toast! We’re suckers if we keep pitching a guy who had marginal stuff to begin with, but is no longer fooling hitters with his unorthodox delivery.

  34. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Ken said it for me. It was not second guessing, because the thoughts were formed when I saw Broxton sitting in the bullpen and Sherrill warming up. If I was second guessing, my criticism of Torre would have come about as a result of Sherrill’s performance after the fact.

    And I don’t care about Sherrill’s stats last year, and apparently you don’t either. I didn’t like him last year, wanted him traded before the season began while he had some value, and certainly I don’t trust him this year. Maybe there’s a team out there desperate enough for a lefthander in their pen, that they will ignore what they’re seeing, and pull the trigger on a deal for Sherill that nets us something of value, and saves us the $4.5 million he’s getting. Stranger things have happened. However, as things stand now, I’d trade him for a bag of balls if someone will take on his salary (or most of it).

    And yes, if Sherill had gotten the save we would NOT be having this discussion. I would have questioned Torre’s move in my mind like I did last night, but as has happened before, Torre would have been right and I would have been wrong.

  35. lawdog says:

    Amen, BD.

  36. Mark Timmons says:

    Look, I like most Dodger players, but for some reason I don’t like George Sherrill. I get that a lot of people here don’t like him either. I really thought the Dodgers would trade him… but they didn’t! For some reason they think he’s worth $4.5 mil. The reason they think that is they believe he is fully capable of closing and is a guy who gives us a second closer. Frankly, he scares me, but his stats that I posted above say otherwise.

    Earlier, Ty posted an Eric Stephen post where he he posted Torre’s mishandling of the pen:

    “Wednesday: Tied 3-3 entering the 10th inning, Torre saves Broxton for a save situation that never comes, rather than use him to help keep the game tied. Ramon Ortiz gives up a run in the 10th, giving the Pirates the win
    * Thursday: Now that Broxton hasn’t pitched for six days, he “needs work” and is inserted into the finale in Pittsburgh with the Dodgers leading 10-2.
    * Friday: Russ Ortiz began the ninth inning in Pittsburgh leading 7-1, but was pulled with one out and the bases loaded. In comes Jonathan Broxton to get two outs, entering a game in which the Dodger win expectancy was already 98%.
    * Tonight: Now that Broxton has pitched in two straight games, he is unavailable tonight to protect a 6-4 lead

    That, my friends, is the vicious cycle of incorrect bullpen usage.”

    That is straight up “second guessing” and frankly is based upon assumptions which cannot be made in fact. Here’s why.

    1. Many managers won’t bring there closer in for “non-save” situations, but let’s say he did. How can anyone say that Brox wouldn’t have given up a run or what if the Dodgers failed to score after Brox held them scoreless. Then the Second Guessers would be saying that Joe “wasted” Brox.

    2. The next game, Torre brought him in to give him some work. If he hadn’t and Brox got hit the next game, the Second Guessers would have said “What do you expect? Torre didn’t use him enough?

    3. Maybe Torre should have brought in someone in the next game after Russ Ortiz loaded the bases, but he wanted to make sure the Dodgers won, AND he knew he had Sherrill. Remember, he’s the guy who Ned said is “another closer” for the Dodgers.

    What is Joe supposed to do? Not use that second closer that Ned paid $4.5 mil for? Ned got him so that Joe would not have to worry about using Brox too much. The Dodgers talked about this a lot when they traded for and then re-signed Sherrill. Joe has to use him periodically in save situations. HE WAS THE BEST BELLPEN PITCHER for the Dodger last year as well.

    What drives me crazy is when someone says he is toast after just 3 outings. That IS idiotic! He has pitched 3 games. One bad game, one good game and another bad game.

    There was a manager last year who had his closer post a 7.21 ERA. That closer blew 11 out of 42 save opportunities while the league was hitting .301 against him and he was posting a 1.81 WHIP. That team went to the World Series.

    Like the Phillies, the Dodgers have some issues, but to say a guy is toast after 1 good game and 2 bad games is crazy! There will always be differences of opinions about who should hit where, which pitcher should pitch, “you left him in too long,” “you took him out too soon,” and that is all “second guessing.”

    Like Brooklyn said, if Sherrill had saved the game, we would not be having this conversation, so it was Sherrill who blew the game, or Ned for putting Torre in the position where he had to use Sherrill.

    To say Torre should have done something different 3 or 4 games ago, assumes fantasy baseball is real and it isn’t!

    In a few days, our pen should get better with the return of Belisaro and Kuo. Who goes? It should be interesting. Last I heard, the Rockies need a closer. Send them Sherrill.

  37. lawdog says:

    Back to the vitriolic crap, eh? So now I am an idiot for saying Sherrill is toast? I’ll bet you haben’t been able to actually see the loser pitch this year. I have. I’ve watched every game. He can’t throw harder than 89 mph and his breaking ball and change are also in the 89s. He reminds me of Pimpdaddy Perez from years passed. He got people out with smoke and mirrors last year with a deceptive delivery–like Joe Beimal. If you liked Beimal, you’ll love Sherrill! He’s not as fast, nor does he throw breaking stuff that is as good, but he’s very similar.

    He proved where he was headed in the spring and hasn’t improved a wit since the season started.

    What is spring training for if it isn’t for weeding out the losers who are aging, or the youngsters who aren’t ready yet? :roll:

  38. lawdog says:

    Oops. That’s his breaking ball and changeup are in the 80s, not 89s. I need new glasses!

  39. lawdog says:

    The dogs need a real set up man for Broxton–and they need Broxton to pitch three games in a row if need be!

  40. Mark Timmons says:

    Lawdog,

    Yeah, if you are saying he’s toast after 3 games, I’d have to say you are and idiot… or high.

    And, his fastball topped out at 91, not 89!

    Remember, I don’t like the guy either…

    Also, know this: That Sherrill has had double digit ERA’s in the Spring 5 times!

  41. lawdog says:

    Sherrill never threw a pitch over 89 according to the gun used by MLB Extra Innings and the Marlins. I think Game Day’s gun is 2 or 3 mph “fast”.

  42. Mark Timmons says:

    Well, if you are going to believe one, believe Gameday because it where all the stats start from.

    They track the type of pitches, amount of break and all that jazz.

  43. Kevin says:

    Mark your wrong on this one Broxton is our closer period. Sherrill will only close when the

  44. lawdog says:

    At this point in time, one really has to wonder why they haven’t managed to get all the guns used by the various teams and sports services standardized and accurate within 1/4 of a mph. It’s crazy trying to gage a pitcher’s true velocity from inaccurate guns while watching them throw on the television.

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