Categorized | Mark Timmons

Want Halladay? Get Creative!

Want Halladay?  Get Creative!

It’s no secret that Toronto wants to dump payroll and start rebuilding, so we can oblige them.  It’s going to hurt, because we will have to give up something we don’t want to, but it won’t weaken us.  Not only does Toronto owe Halladay another year ($15.75 million), but they are also on the hook for Vernon Wells through 2014 (10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M).  They also owe Lyle Overbay $7 mil for 2010 when he will be 33.  The Jays need a younger 1B and we have one – James Loney.  If you look at the stats, there’s not a great deal of difference between Overbay and Loney.  We would be fine with Overbay.  Then by 2011, hopefully Lambo will be ready to take over.  Next, we take Vernon Wells off their hands, but they agree to take Juan Pierre at a fraction ofloney1 Wells price and for a shorter duration. Finally, we give the Blue Jays James McDonald, Blake DeWitt, Ethan Martin and Chris Withrow.    Just, so we are clear, the deal is Loney, Pierre, McDonald, DeWitt, Martin and Withrow for Overbay, Wells and Halladay.  The Jays get financial relief and we win the World Series. 



  1. Furcal  SS
  2. Hudson  2B
  3. Manny  LF
  4. Ethier  RF
  5. Kemp  CF
  6. Overbay  1B
  7. Martin  C
  8. Blake  3B

Vernon Wells takes Juan Pierre place and then takes over for Manny in LF after 2010 (or 2010, if Manny leaves).

About Mark Timmons

When you see the invisible, you can do the impossible!

42 Responses to “Want Halladay? Get Creative!”

  1. New guy says:

    why the hell would toronto do that??
    man you have no clue…..

  2. jaydizel says:

    money, that’s why

  3. Harold says:

    I don’t know if Mark has the right pieces but he does have the right idea. Toronto’s need is to dump payroll and a deal like this would do that. They really want to dump wells. I expect that is the angle that has to be played.

    Martin, Withrow and Loney are all first round draft picks which teams like. However, I expect they do want a MLB ready pitcher. If it was not for the numerous injuries they have this year with young starters, they might not be so insistent.

    From our point of view I would be concerned that Wells is another albatross around our payroll’s neck. Not too far down the road we have to replenish our IF. If Gordon, Bell, Lambo, Abreu can do that, then all is well. If not then we might have to go the FA route and a Wells contract, unless he returns to the old Vernon, is costly.

    However, if we are to get a Halladay or Lee, we have to be creative. I think Epstein is doing that in Boston. He is collecting pieces, LaRoche, Duncan, with something else in mind. Maybe Ned can work through Pittsburgh again to get to Halladay or Lee. Young players from the Dodgers to the Pirates, Duke to the Jays along with others, and Halladay to the Dodgers. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors.


  4. Harold says:

    Maybe the creativity has to go through a third team as Ned did last year to acquire Manny. How about a fourth team. Just read this:

    “Joe Torre and the Dodgers could use a starter and a reliever, and a flurry of scouts watching their Double-A affiliate could be a prelude to a deal. Most noteworthy: Atlanta had both scout Rod Gilbreath and special assistant to the general manager Dick Balderson watching Chattanooga (Tenn.). The Braves do have pitching depth.

    The Cubs, White Sox and Mets also had scouts watching the Lookouts in recent days.”

    I was thinking Ned would work through Pittsburgh again.


  5. Roger says:

    Mark, you just made a key trade. But what do the Dodgers do with Wells? Is he a pinch-hitter? New 1st base coach? Start in a game ever ten days. Or serve Dodger Dogs at home games?

  6. DRomo says:

    It must have been a slow day. Mark is coming up with crazy trades.

  7. Badger says:

    I don’t see it as crazy, it’s actually quite creative, but I don’t give up Loney. He is part of the foundation around here. Give up prospects, don’t change the current on field chemistry. We have the best record in baseball with these guys. I don’t know that Toronto wants starters, maybe they are rebuilding. Maybe the ability to take on Wells would be the kicker for them. Do a three way where Wells becomes our 4th outfielder and Pierre goes to a team where he can get the starting job he has earned. Wells gets another chance and if he takes advantage of it, he plays a lot down the stretch, pinch hits and becomes our left fielder when Manny signs that next huge contract with an A.L. team.

    By the way, do you guys suspect Wells of being a product of the steroid era – or is he, as Ricciardi suggested, just having a down year? He is of course overpaid, but, so many are. Maybe he just needs a change of scenary and the chance to play on a winning team.

    I think the offer we put out yesterday, one including two of our best pitching prospects and two of our best position prospects is a decent offer.

  8. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Mark said: “If you look at the stats, there’s not a great deal of difference between Overbay and Loney. We would be fine with Overbay.”

    Because he will be 33 next year, Overbay has no upside; Loney does. I still believe Loney is going to hit for a lot more power (he’s only 25). As for Lambo, he has potential, but it’s only that. And in his case, even if he reaches that potential, it’s likely going to take time to develop, just like it’s taken Loney, Ethier, Kemp, etc. time to develop. Also, I would not be in the least bit surprised to see Loney heat up at some point this year. He’s done it in the past, and there is no reason to believe he might not do it again. At the very least, he’s at least as likely (more likey in my opinion) to do it as is Overbay.

    Exactly where does Vernon Wells play in an outfield that already has Manny, Kemp and Ethier? Quite an expensive 4th outfielder, don’t you think? (Unless you plan to be “creative” with the outfield). And exactly what happens when the Dodgers get saddled over the next number of year with his albatross of a contract? Say goodbye to payroll flexibility. Pierre’s contract (probably less than $20 million over the next two years) is chump change compared to Wells’ contract.

    By the way, Baseball America lists Carlos Santana as #7 among their midseason top 25 prospects. They have this to say about him:

    “Hard to believe the Dodgers gave up Santana–a switch-hitter with power and defensive ability–a year ago for Casey Blake.” They also say this about Santana: “Steady defender and polished hitter who has adjusted to the attention he’s getting from opposing pitchers.” They have his stats at the time of publication as .266/.398/.502 (Avg./OBP/SLG) with 17 doubles and 14 HR. As the .398 OBP indicates, Sanatana is a discipline hitter who draws a lot of walks (59 in 259 ABs).

    As I’ve noted before, the acquisition of Blake could have been accomplished w/o surrendering Santana if the Dodgers had been willing to pay Blake the remaining $2 million on his contract last year. That’s less money than is often paid to top amateur prospects, whereas Santana was already an accomplished professional when the deal was consummated. And if the Dodgers are truly interested Halladay, how might their chances have been improved if they still had Santana to offer as a trading chip?

    By the way, among the 25 top midseason prospects there was nary a Dodger. In fact, in a list of other players not in the top 25 who received votes, again there were no Dodgers. We have prospects, but the list of premium prospects appears to be getting a lot shorter.

    The only Dodger mentioned (and he’s not in the top 25, nor did he receive any votes) was Dee Gordon, who was listed as a midseason all-star at SS, with these comments: “Tom Gordon’s son has proved to be a flash on the basepaths, with dynamic speed and an emerging bat.”

  9. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    The errors (everyone will figure them out) in my previous comments could have been cleaned up by an EDIT or PREVIEW button, or whatever it’s called.

  10. Mark Timmons says:


    If I could fix that, I would. Someday…

    I too had heard that if McCourt had paid the $2 mil, we could have kept Santana, so I asked a person with inside info (who works for the Dodgers). He said “NOT TRUE!”

    Who knows?

  11. Badger says:

    I don’t really want Wells either, but, it could be possible that a change of scenary, playing for a contender, could light a fire under him. Big gamble, I know, but geez, we were willing to pay Jones $36 million and we knew he stunk. Wells doesn’t stink, he is just having an “off” year. As for when and where he plays, maybe we just rotate them all in and out all year, resting Manny and platooning Ethier on occasion, I don’t know. Like I said, I don’t want to do it necessarily, but if it costs us fewer prospects and we get Halladay, I would trade Pierre for Wells.

  12. lawdog says:

    Wells is 30 years old, is hitting .260 with 10 hrs and a .308 OBP. Yep, that’s just what we need. A 15 million dollar a year pinch hitter who no longer can hit. He’s a ‘roid shadow of his former self. If they’d take Pierre for the duo and we wouldn’t have to give up as many prospects it might work. Wells can sit on his butt as well as anyone else!

  13. DRomo says:

    Atlanta has been scouting our AA team? They do have pitching depth but what could a deal be there? 3-way? The Cubs and White Sox were there too. Interesting, I am sure Burhle is untouchable :)

    Toronto was at Billingsley’s last start. Nice audition, huh? But who else could they have been looking at. They were there Tuesday and Wednesday.

    I am starting to get the feeling Halladay will not get traded. Just a hunch from me. I read an article out of Toronto that said they should trade the GM and keep Roy! I thought that was funny!

    Peace guys! Let’s go for 6 in a row tonight!

  14. Badger says:

    What if we got Wells, he continued to hit .260 but hit a grand slam to beat the Pirates?

    We got talent at AA. Our 3 and 4 hitters there, Lambo and Bell, are no doubt being looked at. Maybe they go to Atlanta and the Braves send along the pitcher Toronto wants. No doubt the phone lines are burning up.

  15. Mark Timmons says:

    This could be a 3 to 5 team deal, and those of you who don’t understand taking salary back, well sorry!

  16. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Wells hit .300 last year, and .249 in 2007. If you examine his career stats (link below) you will find that he isn’t a model of consistency. Next year he is scheduled to make $12.5M. However, it’s the four years following that which are likely to hamstring the Dodgers. Between 2011 and 2014 his annual salaries will be, respectively, $23M, 21M, 21M, and $21M. In those years he will be 32, 33, 34 and 35. There is nothing in his career that warrants gambling that he will provide adequate performance based upon what he will be receiving in pay. His is a contract that no team will want to take on. I suggest we leave the Blue Jays with that headache.

    The link below is to the Blue Jays’ contracts found in “Cot’s Baseball Contracts”.

    I would like to have Halladay on the Dodgers, but not at an exorbitant price. If that’s impossible, then the Dodgers need to look elsewhere, and at other people. That may well be where they have to exercise creativity. No way I included Billingsley, Kershaw, or Loney.

  17. Roger says:

    Right now, I like what George used to say in NYC –

    “Do whatever it takes. . . “

  18. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    I understand taking salary back, and it wouldn’t be Wells’ exorbitant contract (which dwarfs Pierre’s). Might as well put shackles on McCourt, because nothing will get done after that.

  19. Mark Timmons says:

    To dismiss Vernon Wells as a steroid player ignores how good he really is, and what happens when a player is on a team that has no playoff future and/or is injured. He has hit 20+ HR 6 times and 30+ twice.

    In 2006, Vernon Wells hit .303 (.542 SLG%), 40 DBL, 32 HR, 106 RBI

    Contrast this with Jason Bay, who is 2006 hit .286 (.532 SLG%), 35 HR and 109 RBI only to hit .247 in 2007 with 21 HR and 84 RBI.

    After a trade to the RedSox he rebounded nicely.

    Unless something is wrong with Wells that we don’t know about, he could be a good (albiet VERY overpaid) player, but sometimes you have to overpay to get what you want – a World Series.

    As long as we keep Bills, Kershaw, Kemp, Ethier, Gordon, Lambo, Lindblom, Broxton, Troncoso, Elbert and Martin, I am fine with it. I love James Loney, but sometimes sacrifices have to be made.

  20. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    I submitted a longer post before my last one. Did it get caught in spam?

  21. DRomo says:

    “As long as we keep Bills, Kershaw, Kemp, Ethier, Gordon, Lambo, Lindblom, Broxton, Troncoso, Elbert and Martin, I am fine with it. I love James Loney, but sometimes sacrifices have to be made.”

    Just my opinion here. I like your list but if Bills gets Halladay I let him go. I mortgage our future with Billingsley for a shot at a ring this year and next with this roster we have.

    It’s game 7 this year would you rather have Doc or Bills on the mound? I say Doc! Remember we are talking about THIS YEAR.

  22. lawdog says:

    I can’t believe Mover is telling us a guy hitting .260 with an OBP of .308 is a star that could take us to the series this year. Yes, Wells used to have anocaisional great year. So did Andruw Jones.

    Like Jones, Wells is fat, slow and has been inconsistent. He missed a game on Sunday with the sniffles.

    For every good year he’s had, he’s had a miserable off year. Consider–in 2007 he hit .245 with an OBP of .304. In 2005 he hit .269 with an OBP of .320. In 2004 he hit .272 with an OBP of .337. In 2003 he hit .275 with an OBP of .305. He’s inconsistent year to year. But he’s had twice as many bad to mediocre years as he has had mediocre to good years.

    When it comes to stealing bases he gets caught 3 times for every 6 he steals–and that’s back when he ran.

    His lifetime avg is .281 with an OBP of .330.

    And we want to give him a starting job over Ethier, Kemp or Manny?

    Mover, if Ethier had numbers like these, you’d not only call him Mr. Softee McLard-ass, you’d also demand he be ridden out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, and left in a ditch for the Giants to come take him.

    Just say no to Wells.

  23. DRomo says:

    ”’s Ken Gurnick passes on comments Dodgers GM Ned Colletti made this morning on KABC Radio. Colletti says the Jays want two or three current Dodgers, including a young pitcher, or five or six prospects.”

    2-3 current players? OK. Castro, Schmidt, & (a young pitcher?) Leach. Done deal! Have Halladay meets us in St. Louis Monday!

    Seriously No way on that deal, but I think there is a compromise somewhere that a mix of current players and prospects could land Doc. 1-2 current players & 2-3 prospects? I don’t know depends on the actual names. But at least there is talk.

  24. DRomo says:

    Mark, what is a plan B for aquiring pitching? If we miss on Doc & Lee. Could a guy like Garland or a Pavano help us you think? Garland has done it in Oct.?

  25. Harold says:

    I watch Wells play a lot. He simply isn’t the player he once was. I think his injury probably has relegated him to a second tier player.
    I don’t think he was on steroids. I think he was over-rated and has peaked already.

    I know Jason Bay rebounded but for me the character of a player is displayed when he is playing on a team that can’t go anywhere, not when he is playing on a very strong team. If he gives up and plays with less enthusiasm he is lacking professionalism. Tell me Albert Pujols would dog it on the Nationals or Pirates? Vernon’s contract goes to $21M a year in a couple of years. I don’t think we can eat that. Another way has to be found to get Halladay.


  26. DRomo says:

    I have some calls in Harold. I’ll figure out a way. Nobody panic!

  27. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    Cardinals acquired Holliday (no, NOT Halladay) from the A’s just in time for the Dodger series next week.

  28. Badger says:

    I like the way you think Romey. Pull the trigger on that trade.

    If that is really what the Jays want, and of course I assume it’s starting players, then screw ‘em.

    I get what you are saying ldawg, and you may be absolutely right. But, I would be willing to give it a shot to get Halladay. Ain’t my money, and the Dodgers have plenty of it, with more to come in the future. If Wells just needs a new uniform, then he can be our 4th outfielder. If he needs a therapist, then let him get it somewhere else. I have no idea what is going on with him as I don’t follow the Jays.

  29. Mark Timmons says:

    Hey guys, I throw this stuff out there to stimulate ideas. I really don’t want Wells either, but if we did take him, we’d have to give up a lot less.

    1. McDonald, Leach, Loney, DeWitt and Pierre from our 25-Man Roster;
    2. Hu and Stults.

    What is wrong with that?

    Just give us Halladay and Rios!

    1. Furcal SS
    2. Hudson 2B
    3. Manny LF
    4. Ethier 1B
    5. Kemp CF
    6. Rios RF
    7. Martin C
    8. Blake 3B

    Romo, If we give up Bills in the trade for Halladay, we really aren’t any stronger.

    Brooklyn, Post freed! See above

  30. Badger says:

    Yoiks. I don’t think I was fully aware of the money due Wells.


    How about this, we agree to take on Wells and his salary and you give us Halladay.

    No? Then keep that contract, take 2 pitchers and 2 position players from our minor league teams for Halladay or…. take a hike.

    I really don’t want to start changing position players at this time. I would do a Blake for David Wright kind of position switch, but putting our right fielder at first base this late in the season seems like a stretch to me. We don’t need a lineup change, we need another arm.

    Let’s go a different way if they are asking too much.

  31. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    I stand on what I said about not trading Loney. But since it’s been suggested, I ask, has Ethier ever played 1B? First base is the anchor of the infield. A good defensive first baseman is worth his weight in gold. For years I watched Keith Hernandez and John Olerud play for the Mets, and I can tell you categorically, the infield on those teams benefitted immensely from their presence. When infielders have confidence that their throws need not be perfect, their defense jumps up a level or two. I’m sure Ethier could ultimately master first base, but now’s not the time to begin the experiment. Besides, Loney is not a player I have any desire to move. I still hold the opinion, that as frustrating as it is to wait for his power to emerge, I believe that it eventually will. He is two years younger than Ethier, and the latter didn’t begin picking up his power until he hit 20 last year at the age of 26. And we’ve seen the power surge he’s had this year at 27. Loney will be 26 next year. He’s already a good hitter and a gold glove caliber first baseman. Trading him now would not only remove his very real potential, but could prove a disruption to our infield defense. And removing Ethier from the outfield would do the same there. I don’t want Wells, nor do I want to see Manny and JP in the same outfield.

    By the way, I would do Casey Blake for David Wright in a heartbeat. As much as Blake is a cohesive force in the Dodgers clubhouse, Wright is a player who would probably benefit greatly from a change of scenery. If anything, given the Tony Bernazard doings with the Mets, they are clearly showing the signs of a dysfunctional organization. Do I think the Mets would do such a deal? I doubt it, not without another player or players involved.

    One more thing about Loney. I still can’t get out of my head his performance in September 2007, when he hit 9 bombs and drove in 32 runs. I don’t remember exactly what his average was that month, but I’m certain it was over .300. To me it’s a matter of maturity, and that once it comes we’re going to see a much different (better) player. And I want it to happen in LA, not somewhere else. By the way, I distinctly remember one of those bombs being hit off of Jason Schmidt when he was a Giant.

    Mark, am I the only one whose posts get trapped, or do I have company?

  32. Roger says:

    I just watch Doc H. pitch the first inning against the Rays.

    Ok, nothing special. His pitches kind of look like Greg Maddox a few years back. Not over-powering. Just right there. Also, he is wearing Sandy’s number.

    Trading for these guys in mid-season for, four or five players bothers me in that they could be gone after their contract as a FA.

  33. Badger says:

    I was joking about Blake for Wright. The point I was making was simply that our on field team doesn’t really need anything. I like our lineup right down to the 9 hole. If we were going to move anyone out of it, I personally would move Blake, as you all know, I want more power out of my corner infielders, but frankly at this point I don’t move any of them unless overwhelmed.

    If taking on Wells is part of what Toronto insists on, nobody is going to deal with them. There are only a handful of teams that can afford an inflated contract like that and I really doubt any of them want to do it. St. Louis got Holliday for 3 prospects. We should be able to get Halladay for 4. If not, then another team will have to create a hole to get him.

    There must be a quality arm out there that could be had for a few prospects.

  34. Mark Timmons says:


    For some reason the spam likes you. Not sure why.

    I agree with you about Loney.

    Ethier has taken practice at 1B – that’s all.

  35. Mark Timmons says:

    The 3B candidate the Cards gave up, Brett Wallace is very good. He was that Crads #2 prospect. They also gave up Mortenson, their #6 prospect.

  36. Brooklyn Dodger says:

    The Cards were rumored to be one of the teams in the Halladay hunt. Given the deal for Holliday, I suspect that they could be out of the running for Halladay, unless they’re intent on seeing a Holliday-Holliday headline. With a little less competition, perhaps the price for Halladay goes down a bit. Maybe, maybe not.

    It’s nice to be liked/loved, even by spam.

  37. Roger says:

    Mark, the Cards are a good example of a team that will give up some of its better (or top) prospects — to win now !!!

    Albert said over the winter, it the Cards do not make a winner, HE will move on when his contract is up.

    They heard the message.

  38. Roger says:

    Does all this excitement for THIS year really matter??

    Heck, I am going to be on the other side of the world during the World Series.

    This year it is scheduled for Oct 28 – Nov 5. Wife and I will be in New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa, moving toward Pago Pago, Moorea, Pateete, Tahiti, Bora Bora, and Hawaii.

    I will be looking for baseball prospects down/out there.

  39. Badger says:

    Wow Roger, what a trip.

    Will you adopt me and take me with you?

  40. Roger says:

    Badger, we are coming your way. Arrive in Scottsdale (flying) on August 7th. Stay there till the 11th, see my dr. at the Mayo Clinic, but then leave by 9:30 am for Sedona for part of the day, then mid to late afternoon drive to Jerome for the night. The next day taking the tour train

    We will be with 2 others, and they are like-minded. Maybe we can meet for lunch of the 11th; the 6 of us??? Let me know.

    The next day (Aug 12) we take the Verde Canyon Railroad for the afternoon site see (1st class car) here is the site:
    Have you done that? If not, join us.

    Is this Marlins pitcher going to give the Dodgers trouble tonight???

  41. Mark Timmons says:

    Billy Beane got one heck of a hitter in Brett Wallace. I think the only reason that the Cards traded him was the fact that he is really a first baseman, but the Cards had him at 3B, where he was not very good, because they already had a 1B. This is a .300 hitter with 40 HR potential. He’ll be a monster.


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