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Categorized | Mark Timmons
“What I do know, you better watch out when you’re playing chicken!”
About Mark Timmons
When you see the invisible, you can do the impossible!32 Responses to “Fowl Play By Boras!”
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As despicable as he is, it’s even worse to see a picture of him. Please no mas.
Q. How can you tell if The Infallible One is lying?
A. His lips are moving.
He may be rich and he may have done it his whole career as an agent, but he missed it on this one. Overplayed a very poor hand and is now stuck, so now we see the rhetoric getting more nasty. So my top two quotes from The Infallible One are:
“we will now be accepting serious offers” (little did he know that he already had seen the only serious offer) and “what I do know, you better watch out when you are playing chicken.” (obviously he doesn’t know that, or at least hasn’t learned it yet). I think Ned and Frank have done a very good job of “playing chicken” with a jackass.
“…just words, just speeches…” — Barrack H. Obama (campaign speech, 2008) Those things have a way of backfiring on you.
I still would want Manny in a Dodger uniform for 3 years. We gave Jason Schmidt, a guy who we knew was broken a three year deal. We gave a .200 hitter with a weight problem a two year deal, why wouldn’t we give arguably the best right handed hitter in the game a three year deal? A guy who just a few months ago took this team on his shoulders and carried them farther than they had been in 20 years.
Oh yeah, I forgot, we don’t want to “bid against ourselves”.
“Those things have a way of backfiring on you.”
They sure do Haze.
“We know for a fact that there are weapons there.” George W. Bush State of the Union Address January 28, 2003.
Maybe we shouldn’t bring politics in here. Let’s just stick to the Dodgers and our difference of opinions on what to do about Manny?
3 more years! 3 more years!
I agree with you give him the first deal and 48 hours to respond and lets move on I am tired of this stuff.
Wouldn’t the Giants LOVE to do this:
By Matt Lynch
Rotoworld.com
updated 1:47 p.m. MT, Wed., Feb. 4, 2009
Giants willing to offer Manny two years
Could Manny Ramirez be so insulted by the recent one-year offer extended by the Dodgers that he’d take a two-year deal with the division rival Giants similar to the $45 million offer from Los Angeles he initially rejected months ago? A team source has indicated that the Giants would be willing to give Manny two years. Nothing yet has been able to move him off his stance that he wants a three- or four-year deal, but perhaps spite is just the thing to do it. (San Francisco Chronicle)
The Giants would fill that park and the chants of “BEAT L.A.” would reveberate all the way to Mission Viejo.
Having said that, I am just fine with using that money to sign three more players. Like Evan, and many others, I am getting weary of this stuff. We get it Frankie, you were expecting to hear what it will take from Borass and he ain’t talking (neither would I in a negotiaition, give me your top bid and we will discuss that) so make the final offer – whatever it is – then go get Abreu/Dunn, Hudson and Sheets. Heck that might be the best move anyway.
On the Jim Rome show this Tuesday, Mark Loretta attempted to promulgate the union position that payroll is an investment and not an expense. If we accept that postulate as true then maybe we should analyze Manny’s postion from an investment banking perspective.
In any M&A deal the seller wants the best compbination of price and terms. Borass skillfully attempts to use this approach. He is attempting to sell his client to a wealthy acquirer at the best price and terms. When attempting to detemine the best price/terms both the acquiring company and the target will attempt to determine the synergizes between the two parties. Borass is an expert at this task. Public comments by Frank, Ned, Joe, BOWA, some players and all of us bloggers only help to disclose and emphasize the synergizes and therefore assist Boras in a justifiable demand for a higher price.
However, Borass’ assumptions that the historical earnings/production always is a predictor of the future earnings/player’s production is not true. This is a false premise that he publically argues. Investors (Frank) will pay for the benefit derived from predictable future earnings at an appropriate Price/Earnings multiple which is solely a function of risk. Risk is partially determined by the national, regional and local economies along with the fundamentals of a particular industry, and most importantly the specific company risk. Once again Borass discusses the unique aspects of the baseball industry to demand a higher price for his client. However, he does not discuss the effect of the national and local econmies upon the revenue generated by the Dodger product or the their effect upon the revenue generated by the specialty product/Manny. Obviously Frank (the acquirer) and (Borass/Manny)the target have a disagreement regarding the predicted long term level of income and return on this investment. Most of us do not know, and will not agree regardless of our political opinions, what will happen in the national economy and therefore I conclude that Borass should settle for a lower price with better terms. The price is the guarantee and the terms are the years and an earnout. The earnout is the incentive postion of a contract.
Therefore I suggest that the parties agree on a guarantee of $20 mil per year for 3 years with an incentive bonus based upon the attributes that are allowed in the union barganing agreement, such as plate appearances, that will allow Manny to earn up to $25 mil per year, plus a deferred bonus over years 4-6 based upon attendence figures that are compared to a Pre-Manny baseline of 2007-2008. If Manny’s production drops than Pierre or Lambo will play, attendence and plate appearances will drop and Manny will receive his $20 mil.
Wow. You’re good.
As has been proven by past failures of Boras clients none of his postulates, his charts and graphs, his forward claims are a given. Obviously there are no guarantees that Manny will even finish the first year on the field, therefore the cost of insurance must be applied to your analysis.
How do you think this idea will fly with both the union and Borass?
Stop the presses. Ben Sheets may need surgery. He agreed in principle with the Rangers on a deal and couldn’t pass the physical. Wolf man is our best bet. Give Manny a 3 year deal at $66 – $70 million and end the madness. Everyone would love to have him in blue for 3 years. If it’s turned down move on. I still don’t get why we have to not blink or get the best of Borass. It’s felony stupid. We need Manny and Manny needs us. It’s a match that will work for 3 years.
It just seems like the Dodgers under Colletti are either paying too much (Pierre, Jones, Schmidt) or now the new campaign of Ned is they are trying to squeeze and save every penny they can accept for Brad. Why not take the happy medium road and get Wolf signed, since we need a pitcher, sign Manny or at least offer the 3 year deal. We need him – then sign the missing relief and bench players. This is a large market team and we look like KC or Pittsburgh this winter. Season ticket sales appear to be going well. Payroll has been reduced from $119 million at the start of last year to somewhere around $78 million. The question is, do we need to save every last penny or can we start looking like a large market team again and get competitive in the NL West? I’m bored with all this mess and drama.
Let’s see:
Option 1 get you Manny and Randy Wolf for $34 million; or
Option 2 gets you Randy Wolf, Orlando Hudson, Bobby Abreu, Dennys Reyes and Nomar for $34 million.
Which team would win the most games?
I don’t care, just get an option done. Like I’ve been saying, if you really want Manny- make the 3 year offer (since everyone on the planet knows that’s what it will take). Or if you don’t really want him , quit screwing around and sign the other guys before they’re done. All this drama is killing most Dodger fans.
done = gone
Good point. I still want Manny in post season.
Reyes could come cheap so I don’t know he really figure in. Same could be said for Nomar, and we really don’t need him as we have Loretta. This is the Dodgers and payroll is low now so the question to me is Abreu and Hudson + a pitcher, or Manny?
Ken, you may need to include pictures a few guys in here, they will have no idea what you are talking about, and you flew over their heads, I appreciate your economic take.
BillRussell, who’s to say that Ned won’t give a “medium road” ultimately with Manny. They also have a great shot at Wolf and we do need him. The Dodgers have read the situation correctly and have not foolishly driven up the price, there is still some negotiating to be done. Right now, as long as The Infallible One still believes he is in a game of chicken, nothing will get done. The Infallible One is going to have to re-evaluate his stance, as Ken as suggested above.
I am still on the fence if we will see the good Manny or the Bad Manny. Based on his track record we will see both, sooner or later (if he is a Dodger that is).
Bury Bonds is going down and hard, I hope. The evidence is being delivered by the truck load. Will it all be allowed? Who knows, but the judge. Regardless, in the court of public opinion, Bury is a cheater and the MLB brass should be fired, especially the well-paid Commish.
I think i would go with option 1. Option 2 is ok but some of those players mentioned in option 2 are not a good fit for the dodgers. I think that once the dodgers signed Loretta that pretty much assured nomar that he wouldnt be back,since both players are utility and both right handed and both play the infield. Orlando Hudson is a good player also but i think Dewitt is going to be good too,plus you have Abreu waiting for his chance again. It saves the dodgers some $$$. I also think Bobby Abreu is a really good player but not a good fit for this team,first of all he is not a power hitter any more and i think he had some 20 homeruns last year playing for the Yankees in that short porch in right field, how many homeruns can he hit being with the dodgers i think that abreu is still a good player but kind of in the decline of his career. Some of you might say that Manny is 36 but he didnt seem to be on the decline last season. I think that the dodgers already have their version of Bobby Abreu in Andre Ethier or close to it. How about option 3 Manny, Wolf and Reyes.
Rosenthal sounds a little better informed today:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9177408/Sources:-Manny's-agent,-Dodgers'-GM-still-talking
This thing does change some everyday. I wonder what the actual truth is.
I kind of agree with tired Dodger fan and I’m kind of feeling like his name. Just make a decision and go with it Nedster.
If we don’t sign Manny we will be just another .500 club. I know this is frustrating as hell waiting for the other shoe to drop–but nothing has really changed since the beginning of the off season when almost all Dodger fans we’re of one accord and agreed that we needed Manny to contend. Things are the same. We’re just more frustrated.
Is that a picture of Boras? Looks a lot like a drunken William Shatner to me!
Option 2 ain’t exactly chopped liver, Mark.
Here’s something from the HotStove report that may appeal to you BillRussell:
The Dodgers resumed negotiations on Wednesday with representatives of free agents Manny Ramirez and Randy Wolf, but no agreements were reached.
General manager Ned Colletti confirmed he spoke with Scott Boras about Ramirez and Arn Tellem about Wolf.
On Ramirez, Colletti said he and Boras “agreed to continue to stay in touch these next few days.”
At least The Infallible One is actually going to stay in touch, which is a lot better than his personal game of chicken he has been playing. Don’t think for a minute that a guy like Borass doesn’t have his own ego involved in this thing. He will do whatever it takes to save face, he may even give Manny some good advice and have him take a 1 year deal, just so he can “prove something” to ManRam in his next contract, the one that follows this one, of course.
As far as this year goes, if there was a market for Manny, he would have already been signed by someone.
Badger I am not sure about the union’s opinion because the CBA appears to allow effort type incentives but not achievement type incentive clauses. I believe that it allows incentives for ABs but not HRs and Games Played but not ERA.
Sad to hear about Sheets because I wanted both him and Wolf for one year. Now Wolf’s leverage has increased and he will probably hold out for at least 2 years. I think that the pitching bench is deep and ready to take over in 1-2 years so the Dodgers should only sign one pitcher for 2 years. Interesting to see who will be the 5th starter.
Option 2 is now my preference. If we sign another left handed bat, Dunn or Abreu, then we may have too many left handed hitters and we may need Hudson to rebalance the lineup.
The long term perspective is hard to take sometimes so I would be frustrated if the Dodger treat 2009 as a rebuilding year even though they may have a very good home grown pitching staff in 2010 and a good mesh of veteran position players and rookies coming on board 2010 to 2012. If the Dodgers overpay for Manny then they will have a more difficult time holding on to the players that they drafted.
Good post Ken, I think that the dodgers would only overpay for Manny if they were to give him that 4 or 5 year deal he’s asking for. I think a 3 year deal is fair for both sides. I also dont understand the last part of your post, where you write that if the dodgers sign manny they will have a hard time signing the rookies that are coming aboard in 2010 to 2012. Lets say that in 2012 its kemps turn at free agency and you have another youn player coming up in the system,so we dont sign kemp because its going to be hard to sign other rookies? I thought this was LA a big market, where 3.5 million fans come to the park every season. I think the teams that should worry about stuff like that are the small market teams.
Yeah, well the s’sperts say that the premier players pay for themselves, and Manny is one of those guys. As long as he is on the field, the team is winning and makes the play-offs, the Los Angeles Dodgers should be able to keep payroll at or above $120 million. As I see it, the only way we overpay him is if he ends up on the DL.
ken, I do understand the CBA incentive agreements are based on certain criteria, but never heard any based on attendance. As for the economic forces influencing all of this, Boras didn’t accept any lesser terms for Teixeira and Lowe.
I believe ab’s ARE HR’s when it comes to Manny. ab’s are runs that you can book if he is in the lineup. But when it comes to Ramirez, or any of his clients, how does Boras deal with incentive clauses? I am asking because I don’t really know, haven’t looked it up, but am assuming he avoids them at all costs.
Here is what I have realized this week about my Dodger fan brothers. We are not very smart most of the time! Myself included! Here is what I mean: Last offseason we signed Andruw Jones and we all for the most part thought it wasn’t great but better than Juan Pierre. Well let’s be honest Jones was freaking horrible and hit maybe 1 more HR than Pierre (Who by the way only hit 1 more than me). But there so many Dodger fans were last year thinking, how cool it was to have Andruw Jones!
Flash forward to this offseason. After 2 years of bitching about Jason Schmidt, still fans were saying on this website, SIGN BEN SHEETS! After knowing the guy had arm issues throughout his career (including just last year) fans were saying the Dodgers were too cheap to sign Ben Sheets.
It is these fans that (if they got their way) would still be bitching next year when Sheets throws as many innings as I will in the big leagues!
It is easy to call the GM an idiot and the owner a cheapskate isn’t it? But let’s use the same scale when we are dead wrong too!
Ben Sheets had a great year last year. And he’s dinked around with a sore arm since he came into the majors. Who knew he was going to need elbow surgery? Most major league pitchers have sore arms at age 30. Throwing a baseball 95 mph and snapping off curves and sliders does major violence to the pitching arm and these guys have been over worked, if they’re any good, since they pitched in little league.
It’s a hard to call to make. Ben might have pitched three more years without any problems before his arm fell off. Jason Schmidt is a different story. He was known to be damaged gods before we gave him Kevin Brown money. Sheets’ problem would have been diagnosed by our doctors if we’d signed him “pending passing of the physical.”
I think Boras should beam back up to the Enterprise and look for some more of that Klingon Ale.
One more thing I neglected to add in my last post – I wouldn’t be so certain on Bonds going down. Much depends on the testimony of Anderson, and he is giving no sign that he is changing his mind about talking.
There are some people who indeed ARE above the law.
TDF
I attempted to implicitly say that if Manny is overpaid then what argument does Frank have to not overpay the Kemps, Martins, Loneys, Bills, etc. when their arbitration years are over. Will Frank sign the core players to long term contracts during Manny’s 3-4 year contract? Will he wait until Manny is gone and have underpaid stars demand huge contracts or just leave.
Just wondering whether Frank is being wise or cheap when simultaneously thinking about the long-term effect of decisions that may be made in the next 2 weeks.
Bonds is going down IF all the unsealed evidence comes in. The question is whether they can lay the proper evidenciary foundation to allow it. IF they allow it, he can kiss his butt goodbye for 6 long months in Club Fed!
I hope you are right. But, having seen so many of the rich, and the powerful, get off, I just have lingering doubts.
Lawdog,
Ben Sheets had a great year last year, and had a sore arm?
He missed the home stretch of the season and the playoffs when the Brewers needed him most. And that is my point!! It is easy to Ned is wrong when sometimes we should point at ourselves. I am in that same group. I will no longer call out Nedco. I will wait and see.
No contract should ever be offered without a complete physical. If an oversight like that should happen, as in the Jason Schmidt deal, then whoever allowed it should be taken to the woodshed.
lawdog mentioned this in his post. Sheets would have, hopefully, failed our physical as well, and therefore no deal.
Romey, Sheets made 31 starts last year, including 5 in September. He did get 198 innings in, though his two starts he only went 2 innings in each of them. You are right, he did miss the play-offs, which is a red flag, but he did have a good year.